Why do you eat meat?

kiwi_bird

I have been thinking about posting this for quite some time but never did because I thought I'd just let the topic be one of personal opinion. But when I read through the dating thread I kept reading how Scott was saying one has to defend their own beliefs, so I am interested how you guys (especially Scott) will defend their belief that eating meat is o.k.

First off, I personally couldn't care less if someone eats meat or not. Though I think eating meat is wrong in our society I don't try to push that stance on others (I hate PETA), just as I expect others not to look down on me for not eating meat (which has happened quite often). I will refrain from using too many "moral" arguments, just so my argumentation stays clear.


So here it goes:
I base my argument upon the fact that we as humans see ourselves as something better than animals. We are, in a certain way, "better" or smarter than animals (though I would argue that an animal that is adapted extremely well to its environment is very smart). So I guess this would be my first proposition: Humans are on a "higher level" than animals.

Let us now take a look at what we believe to be a good society. We all believe that every person should be treated equal and should be given equal rights, now matter how smart they are or how weak they are. We are better than animals in the sense that we have "moral". We have established values which are independent from our "real" selves, from where we come from, what we look like, how smart we are and so on. There are obviously quite a few exceptions to this idea, but I think they are not important for this argument.
Second proposition: All humans should be treated equally.

So where do animals come in to this? Well surely animals aren't the same as humans, most animals don't even have the ability to think of a future or time at all. They are just beings driven by their instincts. But I would argue that humans and animals have one thing in common: the ability to experience pain. I don't think anyone would argue that animals are somehow less able to feel pain than humans, animals just don't have the ability to "tell" us how much pain they are experiencing in words. This is where our human "moral" comes into play: only because animals are weaker than we are, are more stupid than we are doesn't mean we have the right to treat them as lesser beings. Of course at some point we have to draw a line. I wouldn't go as far as to say animals need to have the same rights as we do our appropriate health care, they are animals. But I think we can all agree that inflicting pain on animals is a bad thing and should not be done.
Third proposition: Animals are equal to humans in the sense that they also experience pain.

So now my final question would be how you can still "rationally" eat meat, assuming you agree with my propositions, when meat is being "produced" in factories where animals do experience a lot of pain and the only reason you are still eating that meat is probably because the pain is so far away that you just see a nice steak, and not the animal.

BTW I used to love to eat meat.

WindUpBird

I require essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals. The fastest way for me to obtain some of these essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals is to consume meat. There are six billion human beings with unique consciousnesses who must all meet the same dietary requirements. Therefore, efficiency of meat production is a necessity. In the absence of vertical farms, the present industrial farm method is the best and most efficient way to provide these people with their dietary requirements. Meat is also delicious.

Animals do not have consciousnesses. Human beings do. Some animals, like lobsters, do not even feel pain. Above all, we must provide for our species.

Apreche

Wow, what a coincidence. I just read this article this morning.

http://voraciouseats.com/2010/11/19/a-vegan-no-more/

TL;DR: A hardcore vegan goes to a doctor and finds out they have serious malnutrition. It is cured by eating meat.

My argument for eating meat is really simple. Is it immoral for a lion to eat meat? Should we stop the lions from eating meat? If we did, they would die of malnutrition. Humans are omnivores. We really need to eat some meat. We don't have to eat as much as a lion, but it's really best for us to eat some. If you love animals, and you feel bad eating them, that kinda sucks. But the laws of the universe don't really care about your feelings.

Also, meat tastes really really good.

kiwi_bird

Therefore, efficiency of meat production is a necessity.

This is not true. There are no "essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals" which you don't get when not eating meat. It has also been shown that if you were to plant plants on the same amount of land you need to keep animals, plants are a much more effective to provide people with their dietary requirements. Not to mention pollution and so on.

kiwi_bird

We really need to eat some meat.

We don't.

You haven't even argued against me. It has nothing to do with loving animals or not.

kiwi_bird

But the laws of the universe don't really care about your feelings.

This is just silly. There is now law of the universe telling us to eat meat. It's just your easy way of justifying eating meat. The universe doesn't care about us going to war, killing people, discriminating against others; but we still shouldn't. We are moral.

Apreche

We don't.

Read the article I just posted. It's incredibly difficult to get proper nutrition without any meat whatsoever. With just a few eggs here or a fish over there, it becomes incredibly easy. If you are actually trying to build muscle, it's close to impossible without meat. Anything else just doesn't have enough energy density. I'm fairly confident that the other folks more knowledgeable on this subject will back me up.

kiwi_bird

I'm talking about not eating meat though, not being a vegan.

Andrew

Really? The only reason I eat other animals is because I don't have to kill them? Oh, except when I go fishing and chop their heads off and gut them. Or when I put a lobster in boiling water. I would have no problem snapping the neck of a chicken or shooting a dear to eat one (just haven't had the chance). Fuck you for saying I'm somehow immoral or irrational for eating other living beings.

La Petit Mort

kiwi_bird

The only reason I eat other animals is because I don't have to kill them?

And because it is just the "normal thing to do" and tastes really good.

I would have no problem snapping the neck of a chicken or shooting a dear to eat one (just haven't had the chance).

I think some people would.

kiwi_bird

That's the very thing I find pretty stupid.

WindUpBird

Therefore, efficiency of meat production is a necessity.

This is not true. There are no "essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals" which you don't get when not eating meat. It has also been shown that if you were to plant plants on the same amount of land you need to keep animals, plants are a much more effective to provide people with their dietary requirements. Not to mention pollution and so on.

You are misrepresenting my words. I said that the fastest and most efficient way for me to get certain essential chemicals (essential here being the biologic term meaning, "unable to be produced de novo in vivo") is by eating meat. Meat and animal products are a treasure trove of essential compounds: tryptophan, isoleucine, lysine, methionine, phenylanine, threonine, tryptophan, valine, histidine, tyrosine, iron, omega-3s, etc. However, it is in fact your statement which isn't true. B12 is not synthesized in any plant metabolome. No plant on earth makes it, which is why vegans need to take B12 supplements or risk crippling nervous system damage. There's a reason veganism didn't exist before supplements. It also has been shown to stunt your growth if you become a vegan as a child.

The vegan diet is to being an omnivore as pennies are to five dollar bills, in a world with only 495 pennies. Sure, you can get to $4.95 with pennies, and maybe if someone gives you a nickel, you'll get $5. The difference here is that if you don't get to five dollars fast enough, you get really fucking sick.

Also, foie gras and pate are goddamn delicious. I will never give them up. Nor steak, ribs, eggs, or the whole deal. Pollution is only an issue with cows, and we're on the cusp of reengineering Kangaroo flora to live in cows and gobble up all the methane just like they do in roos. I hear kangaroo is fantastic, as well.

Apreche

Oh, also, I personally have no moral problem with killing animals of lesser intelligence. A plant is a living thing with a whole lot less apparent intelligence than an animal. Where do you draw the line? I draw the line at monkeys, dolphins, parrots, octopi, and whales, many of which are as intelligent as small children.

Andrew

And because it is just the "normal thing to do" and tastes really good.

If by normal you mean how human beings evolved, sure.

I think some people would.

Doesn't make it irrational or immoral. I noticed you weren't vegan. How do you justify not eating the cute animals but able to eat fish and animal products? Isn't the exploitation of cows for milk or chickens for eggs just as deplorable to you than their slaughtering for meat? Or are you just trying to take an arbitrary stance so you can be hip in front of your friends?

WindUpBird

I like when Scott and I are on the same side. It's like bringing a really irritable abrasive gun to a knifefight.

Victor Frost

I require essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals. The fastest way for me to obtain some of these essential amino acids, vitamins, and minerals is to consume meat.

This is literally the stuff you learn in Biology 100. I know this because I'm taking Bio100 this semester and out last mid-term covered nutrition.

So now my final question would be how you can still "rationally" eat meat, assuming you agree with my propositions, when meat is being "produced" in factories where animals do experience a lot of pain and the only reason you are still eating that meat is probably because the pain is so far away that you just see a nice steak, and not the animal.

Here's the deal. I love living. It's the one thing I've been successful at doing since I was a baby and I'd hate to break a perfect record. Being an animal, my number one concern staying alive, and if it takes eating Bambi to do it, I will. I won't eat another human though.

Nine Boomer

I draw the line at monkeys, dolphins, parrots, octopi, and whales, many of which are as intelligent as small children.

Groupers have won my heart~

kiwi_bird

How do you justify not eating the cute animals but able to eat fish and animal products? Isn't the exploitation of cows for milk or chickens for eggs just as deplorable to you than their slaughtering for meat? Or are you just trying to take an arbitrary stance so you can be hip in front of your friends?

First off, this isn't about cute animals. And yes, justifying not eating meat but drinking milk and eating eggs really isn't possible. You may call it arbitrary, but IMHO eating less products from animals is still better than eating more. I personally try to drink as little milk as possible and get my eggs from a farm nearby, but I obviously know that not everyone can do so. Again, I think trying is better than carrying on the way we are. I don't try to be hip in front of my friends or any of that bullshit. No one in my friend group is vegetarian and most of them joke about me being one. I don't hate people for eating meat, I was just trying to start an argument.

Where do you draw the line?

Living beings that can experience pain.

B12 is not synthesized in any plant metabolome.

Again, I'm not arguing anyone should become a vegan.

Apreche

I won't eat another human though.

Oh, I forgot to add human to my list. Yeah, I won't eat that either, unless it's a do or die situation and the person already died from whatever disaster we are facing.

Also, I would like to make a typical FRC Forum style argument, for the sake of both shits and giggles.

Everything in the universe is matter. Whether it's animal, vegetable or mineral, it's atoms. Why is one lump of matter in one configuration more or less special or different than another lump in a different configuration? When you "kill" an animal, you are just reconfiguring matter. On the atomic level, it's fundamentally no different than anything else people do. Every single moment of time the matter that makes up your body is having forces act upon it as well as exerting forces on other matter. What is moral or immoral about any of these physical occurrences?

kiwi_bird

Being an animal

I personally don't see my self as an animal very much.

kiwi_bird

Everything in the universe is matter. Whether it's animal, vegetable or mineral, it's atoms. Why is one lump of matter in one configuration more or less special or different than another lump in a different configuration? When you "kill" an animal, you are just reconfiguring matter. On the atomic level, it's fundamentally no different than anything else people do. Every single moment of time the matter that makes up your body is having forces act upon it as well as exerting forces on other matter. What is moral or immoral about any of these physical occurrences?

Killing is a totally different story. I'm just talking about inflicting pain on animals for now.

Apreche

I personally don't see my self as an animal very much.

You're an animal. We are all animals. I strongly advise you to agree with this point because the biologists are going to come down on you like a ton of bricks if you do not.

Apreche

I'm just talking about inflicting pain on animals for now.

So why not just eat kosher meats? Meat is only kosher if the animals are killed with minimal suffering.

lackofcheese

But aren't all animals, humans included, vastly less intelligent than Scott, and therefore perfectly moral for Scott to eat?

kiwi_bird

So why not just eat kosher meats? Meat is only kosher if the animals are killed with minimal suffering.

I would probably agree that eating meat is o.k. then. You see, I'm not trying to say "EAT NO MEAT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, IT'S BAD!", I'm rather trying to say "Eat meat more reasonably, not causing animals unnecessary pain."

kiwi_bird

You're an animal. We are all animals. I strongly advise you to agree with this point because the biologists are going to come down on you like a ton of bricks if you do not.

I still disagree with this notation. Yes, biologically I am only an animal. But I feel there is a lot more to being human than that.

lackofcheese

You're the only one who said "only" an animal.

TheWhaleShark

You are misrepresenting my words. I said that the fastest and most efficient way for me to get certain essential chemicals (essential here being the biologic term meaning, "unable to be producedde novo in vivo") is by eating meat. Meat and animal products are a treasure trove of essential compounds: tryptophan, isoleucine, lysine, methionine, phenylanine, threonine, tryptophan, valine, histidine, tyrosine, iron, omega-3s, etc. However, it is in fact your statement which isn't true. B12 is not synthesized in any plant metabolome. No plant on earth makes it, which is why vegans need to take B12 supplements or risk crippling nervous system damage. There's a reason veganism didn't exist before supplements. It also has been shown to stunt your growth if you become a vegan as a child.

This.

Remember, WindUp and I are the biologists around here. We know this shit.

If you want to get nitty-gritty, the amino acid composition of animal protein more adequately matches the amino acid demands of the human body. If you think about it, that sort of makes sense. Humans are made of proteins which are much closer in structure and function to animal proteins, not plant proteins, so it makes sense that you're going to be ingesting a greater proportion of amino acids that you need when you eat meat.

There is a scale for measuring the digestibility of various proteins, called the protein digestibility corrected amino acid score, or PDCAAS. It's replaced BV and PER as the FDA and WHO standard for measuring the utility of food proteins. Basically, this scale measures the efficiency of digestion of the various proteins in these foods.

Also, I eat meat because it fucking tastes good.

I personally don't see my self as an animal very much.

You're pretty much just wrong here. There's not even an argument for or against this. What have you got? Abstract thought? Awesome, lots of animals demonstrate complex problem-solving capabilities and have complex social structures. The only reason we think we're special is because we can communicate our thoughts to each other.

Apreche

But aren't all animals, humans included, vastly less intelligent than Scott, and therefore perfectly moral for Scott to eat?

If only this were true.

Also, the tastes good argument doesn't hold water on its own. I hear that anti-freeze also tastes very good.

La Petit Mort

Doesn't Scott eat a score of his enemies daily?