Remember this statement when you hear the talking points nearer to the election. The average person is going to remember this as a big win, and associate it with Obama.
Ahhh, but there was no one to run against Obama anyway. He was going to win regardless (unless Reagan somehow came back from the dead).
Also,
The average person doesn't vote.
However, I do believe that in the coming furor, the Democrats and Obama could capitalize on this to push their agenda in Congress. If we want to actually repeal, say, the Patriot Act, now would be possibly the only chance we'll ever have. I believe it expires at the end of the month. If the Democrats can muster a testicle or two, they could leverage the "we got him, so let's give you back some freedom" angle.
I'll amend my statement to "the average voter", and my point is still valid. The average voter is going to remember only the win, that Obama was President at the time of the win, and not question who was actually responsible for the win, barring any unforeseen circumstances such as Obama appearing on Jay Leno and saying that he embraces all of Osama's politics and beliefs.
I agree with you here in terms of how people will remember the event, don't get me wrong. I just think the political landscape has tilted enough already to where it won't actually change anything. Obama will win with a larger mandate, and congress will likely shift back to the blue a bit, but the balance of power won't shift in the long run due to this.
There's no way to prove to enough people that he's dead for it to matter to the organizations actually attempting to raise terror. There's no way he was important enough to the existing structures to materially affect their continued operations. The effects of his death will be felt primarily in the US. I honestly don't expect much change to come with the news.
I disagree - I think that His death will be a blow to the organization on the scales of Morale and operations, however, not enough of a blow to stop them, and likely a temporary blow at best. However, Let's not forget that he was doing this stuff for the majority of his adult life, and he was one of the main founding members of AQ. He was an enemy, but that does not make him stupid - To downplay the effects of his death upon the organization would be foolish, but to think that they do not have plans in place for just this situation is equally foolish - As good as Osama was at hiding away, it's simply highly unlikely that someone smart enough to start and run an international organization like AQ would not plan for just in case the US did get a hold of him, particularly with as many years experience as he had - as the US has orders of magnitude more resources of every kind than Osama would ever have access to.
However, it also raises another question - We've gutted the AQ senior leadership, and we've slotted their top bloke. How effective can they possibly be, going forward, with such a massive dent in their top ranks, let alone the people further down the chain who have been killed by the hundreds? While I don't think AQ will ever go away - at least, not within the foreseeable future - it may be entirely possible that they end up so decimated that they're barely a credible threat, if they haven't reached that point already.
This is news so important, that High School students know about it. These are the people that think that 20-30% of the budget is spent on foreign aid, and know BBC for Doctor Who. I'd like to think that this is a large enough victory to make some real change, but I'm not going to pretend that that is anything but opinion.
Its the ponies. It was only a matter of time before enough good will and magic was build up in the world from pony powers for such a thing to happen. Friendship really is magic after all!
Just saw someone on Facebook suggesting that we "bury him in pig carcasses." Yeah, because a hate crime is really going to help us here. Whatever happened to showing restraint in victory?
Also, I'm quite irked that I used "effect" instead of "affect" in this thread. Fuck that red text.
Just saw someone on Facebook suggesting that we "bury him in pig carcasses." Yeah, because a hate crime is really going to help us here. Whatever happened to showing restraint in victory?
Also, I'm quite irked that I used "effect" instead of "affect" in this thread. Fuck that red text.
You should hear the derp on Fox news (I'm at laura's stepmothers house that's why it's on...) All I can say is her stepmother and I have never agreed so much on politics then this morning apparently, she even got mad when they critized Obama taking some credit because "that's his presidential right". This is a hardcore tea party person too.
Just saw someone on Facebook suggesting that we "bury him in pig carcasses." Yeah, because a hate crime is really going to help us here. Whatever happened to showing restraint in victory?
It would hardly have been a hate crime; he's already dead. However, it would definitely have been terribly distasteful; such an act would only serve to encourage a terrible attitude in people.
Can't imagine this will do anything but fuel the conspiracies demanding to see the body (if it's true).
Actually, that's a very clever move. By Burying him at sea, it's incredibly hard to exhume him or form any sort of shrine, and by following Islamic tradition and paying him the respect of such a burial, it also avoids accusations of mistreatment of the body and creating more anger among Islamic people who may not have been his followers - though doubtlessly his followers are going to be pissed off regardless.
Actually, that's a very clever move. By Burying him at see, it's incredibly hard to exhume him or form any sort of shrine, and by following Islamic tradition and paying him the respect of such a burial, it also avoids accusations of mistreatment of the body and creating more anger among Islamic people who may not have been his followers - though doubtlessly his followers are going to be pissed off regardless.
I can see the good sense in it, but I've had more than one person insist that he wasn't actually dead and we buried some other body at sea to cover it up.
He was an irrelevant old man. Has been effectively dead for years as far as being any actual threat. They gave him credit for a lot more terrorism than he was actually personally responsible for because they needed some person to represent the enemy in the war on terror. The organization he supposedly lead, named Al Qaeda, may not have even existed. Even if it did, it was never nearly as organized or structured as people believe.
Even so, this meaningless event will create all sorts of talking points for the joke that is politics. For people who watch US news, this will appear to be the biggest deal in the universe, bigger even than the royal wedding. The actual effect on the world if the news media wasn't moronic? Next to nothing.
Al Qaeda does exist, and Osama was it's leader. Though you are correct in saying that it's not a very well structured organization.
As for OBL, when it comes to operations, he most likely was an "irrelevant old man" when it came to Al Qaeda operations. But you are forgetting the symbolic victory in it all. This will provide a lot of closure for a lot of people, and hopefully will lower the morale of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, who believed he was protected by god.
I agree with the symbolism. Granted, the guy didn't do too much directly, but he was still an important figure in his organization. It's also a major political point that can be wielded by the Dems of "We actually got something done in 2 years the Repubs couldn't do in 8." Granted, there are some issues with the logic seeing as the search has been going on for so long, but I have little doubt that if W spent less time pointlessly dicking around in Iraq, the death of OBL would have come at much less cost.
There is no question that he was the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks. Regardless of his more recent role in al Quaida, he was still responsible for the murder of 2,977 people. But yeah, no big deal.
There is no question that he was the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks.
Actually, there is a question.
At first he denied that he had anything to do with the September 11 attacks, even though he definitely approved of them. It was much later that he took credit, but taking credit doesn't mean he did it or not. The US government claims to have incontrovertable evidence that he was the mastermind behind the attacks, but the evidence is classified.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has stated that classified[106] evidence linking Al-Qaeda and bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable.[107] The UK Government reached a similar conclusion regarding Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden's culpability for the September 11, 2001, attacks although the government report notes that the evidence presented is insufficient for a prosecutable case.[108] Bin Laden initially denied involvement in the attacks. On September 16, 2001, bin Laden read a statement later broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel denying responsibility for the attack.[109]
There is no question that he was the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks.
Actually, there is a question.
At first he denied that he had anything to do with the September 11 attacks, even though he definitely approved of them. It was much later that he took credit, but taking credit doesn't mean he did it or not. The US government claims to have incontrovertable evidence that he was the mastermind behind the attacks, but the evidence is classified.
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has stated that classified[106] evidence linking Al-Qaeda and bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable.[107] The UK Government reached a similar conclusion regarding Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden's culpability for the September 11, 2001, attacks although the government report notes that the evidence presented is insufficient for a prosecutable case.[108] Bin Laden initially denied involvement in the attacks. On September 16, 2001, bin Laden read a statement later broadcast by Qatar's Al Jazeera satellite channel denying responsibility for the attack.[109]
There is no question that he was the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks. Regardless of his more recent role in al Quaida, he was still responsible for the murder of 2,977 people. But yeah, no big deal.
Osama wasn't the mastermind. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was. Osama merely provided financial support and leadership. KSM was the actual one who came up with the idea and planned it all.
God, the news has to stop reporting "facts" I've been sitting in front of the TV while I'm working and they have said so much conflicting information. Currently I've seen that they were sent to kill not capture, then I heard they gave him a chance to surrender. That Pakistan was involved and then not involved. That information was taken from people in Gitmo then it wasn't then it was.. Ugh guys source your information before talking out of your butt.
Scott, you're starting to sound like the same conspiracy theorists you hate.
Believe me, I know it sounds like a conspiracy nut thing. I'm not saying that he wasn't behind it. Odds are he was. I'm just stating the fact that it is not as clear cut as the media makes it out to be. He wasn't definitely behind it, he was most likely behind it. I actually believe the government when it says it has this evidence, especially since the UK independently discovered the same thing. All I'm saying is that it's kinda bullshit to be tried with confidential evidence. Imagine being convicted of murder in absentia and all the evidence is secret. Talk about justice being blind!
Even if we do believe he was behind it, what exactly was his part in it? Providing resources and training to the people who actually did the deed? Pretty bad, but not exactly the work of an evil mastermind. Just a guy who really believed in fundamentalist Islam who also happened to have a lot of money that allowed him to get dangerous. If my family was rich like his, I would working in similar ways, only to progress geekery. He was just all about pushing the beliefs of Sayyid Qutb instead of say, net neutrality.
Everything having to do with Osama and his friends has been completely hyperbolized and overblown by the media in order to create a big scary enemy for the war on terror. Because of that, they want to make it look like we have slain goliath when all we've really done is take Old Yeller out to the shed.
Even if we do believe he was behind it, what exactly was his part in it? Providing resources and training to the people who actually did the deed? Pretty bad, but not exactly the work of an evil mastermind. Just a guy who really believed in fundamentalist Islam who also happened to have a lot of money that allowed him to get dangerous.
Isn't that pretty much the point of a evil mastermind?
Even if we do believe he was behind it, what exactly was his part in it? Providing resources and training to the people who actually did the deed? Pretty bad, but not exactly the work of an evil mastermind. Just a guy who really believed in fundamentalist Islam who also happened to have a lot of money that allowed him to get dangerous.
Isn't that pretty much the point of a evil mastermind?
Group of like-minded guys work together for many years ever since they fought Russia in Afghanistan. One of them happens to be the guy with the money. Obviously law enforcement should make that guy the highest priority. You take out the money, you take out the group. But does that make him the most evil? The figurehead? The most responsible? The biggest bad? The top dog?
Imagine yourself on a baseball team where all the players are relative equals. Then you find out that the opposing team is really afraid of your 2nd baseman. He's infamous. Well, that raises the status of the 2nd baseman now, doesn't it? Suddenly he's the big man around the clubhouse. The US made Osama more than he ever made himself.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but where did you find this information? Did you deduce this yourself, or did you gather this information from somewhere else? If the latter, can you provide a source?
Comments
Also, However, I do believe that in the coming furor, the Democrats and Obama could capitalize on this to push their agenda in Congress. If we want to actually repeal, say, the Patriot Act, now would be possibly the only chance we'll ever have. I believe it expires at the end of the month. If the Democrats can muster a testicle or two, they could leverage the "we got him, so let's give you back some freedom" angle.
They won't. But they could.
However, it also raises another question - We've gutted the AQ senior leadership, and we've slotted their top bloke. How effective can they possibly be, going forward, with such a massive dent in their top ranks, let alone the people further down the chain who have been killed by the hundreds? While I don't think AQ will ever go away - at least, not within the foreseeable future - it may be entirely possible that they end up so decimated that they're barely a credible threat, if they haven't reached that point already.
Friendship really is magic after all!
Also, I'm quite irked that I used "effect" instead of "affect" in this thread. Fuck that red text.
However, it would definitely have been terribly distasteful; such an act would only serve to encourage a terrible attitude in people.
As for OBL, when it comes to operations, he most likely was an "irrelevant old man" when it came to Al Qaeda operations. But you are forgetting the symbolic victory in it all. This will provide a lot of closure for a lot of people, and hopefully will lower the morale of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, who believed he was protected by god.
The boogeyman of the last decade was just killed.
At first he denied that he had anything to do with the September 11 attacks, even though he definitely approved of them. It was much later that he took credit, but taking credit doesn't mean he did it or not. The US government claims to have incontrovertable evidence that he was the mastermind behind the attacks, but the evidence is classified.
Even if we do believe he was behind it, what exactly was his part in it? Providing resources and training to the people who actually did the deed? Pretty bad, but not exactly the work of an evil mastermind. Just a guy who really believed in fundamentalist Islam who also happened to have a lot of money that allowed him to get dangerous. If my family was rich like his, I would working in similar ways, only to progress geekery. He was just all about pushing the beliefs of Sayyid Qutb instead of say, net neutrality.
Everything having to do with Osama and his friends has been completely hyperbolized and overblown by the media in order to create a big scary enemy for the war on terror. Because of that, they want to make it look like we have slain goliath when all we've really done is take Old Yeller out to the shed.
Imagine yourself on a baseball team where all the players are relative equals. Then you find out that the opposing team is really afraid of your 2nd baseman. He's infamous. Well, that raises the status of the 2nd baseman now, doesn't it? Suddenly he's the big man around the clubhouse. The US made Osama more than he ever made himself.