Group of like-minded guys work together for many years ever since they fought Russia in Afghanistan. One of them happens to be the guy with the money. Obviously law enforcement should make that guy the highest priority. You take out the money, you take out the group. But does that make him the most evil?
Imagine yourself on a baseball team where all the players are relative equals. Then you find out that the opposing team is really afraid of your 2nd baseman. He's infamous. Well, that raises the status of the 2nd baseman now, doesn't it? Suddenly he's the big man around the clubhouse. The US made Osama more than he ever made himself.
I don't know... to extend the baseball analogy, Osama was to Al Qaeda what Steinbrenner was to the Yankees (please note that even though I am a Red Sox fan, I am in no way directly comparing Steinbrenner to Osama other than in the ways I'm explicitly mentioning next). He was the guy behind the scenes providing the money, support, etc., and in many ways the visible face of the organization. He may not have been one of the guys "on the field" actually performing the actions, but he was part of the infrastructure that allowed those actions to be carried out.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but where did you find this information? Did you deduce this yourself, or did you gather this information from somewhere else? If the latter, can you provide a source?
Imagine yourself on a baseball team where all the players are relative equals. Then you find out that the opposing team is really afraid of your 2nd baseman. He's infamous. Well, that raises the status of the 2nd baseman now, doesn't it? Suddenly he's the big man around the clubhouse. The US made Osama more than he ever made himself.
I don't know... to extend the baseball analogy, Osama was to Al Qaeda what Steinbrenner was to the Yankees (please note that even though I am a Red Sox fan, I am in no way directly comparing Steinbrenner to Osama other than in the ways I'm explicitly mentioning next). He was the guy behind the scenes providing the money, support, etc., and in many ways the visible face of the organization. He may not have been one of the guys "on the field" actually performing the actions, but he was part of the infrastructure that allowed those actions to be carried out.
The analogy would be apt, except Al Qaeda is definitely not the Yankees: a big bad evil team that wins all the time. They're more like the Mets. A complete joke that managed to eke out a couple wins.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but where did you find this information? Did you deduce this yourself, or did you gather this information from somewhere else? If the latter, can you provide a source?
Nobody will miss Bin Laden, that is for sure. A mansion life and a quick death were more than he deserved. It's natural to feel a sense of satisfaction or symbolic closure upon his death, but I think the mindlessly euphoric celebrations are uncalled for. The partying in the streets reminded me of the footage of people celebrating when bad things happened to Americans. I feel like we should be better than the kinds of people who celebrate so jubilantly over something like that.
Bin Laden has been rather crippled in the last ten years. The mere knowledge of our manhunt put him into perpetual hiding. We're certainly not safer now than we were yesterday.
Politically, Bin Laden's death is like a prize out of the cereal box. Siblings (republicans and democrats) will squabble over who gets to claim it, but in the end it is not important enough to change anybody's mind about anything. Both sides will mutter that they own it as they gradually cast it aside as irrelevant.
I don't care. Ten years later, now he is going to become dirt and we shall hope that no one will step up to take his place. Once the threat has been removed, let's move on. He cannot do anything, let's not jeer him. Let's just move past this and focus on the current threats.
Scott, you do realize that the power of nightmare argues that the neo-conservatives and the Islamic extremest groups needed each other to grow. It in no way says that Osama Bin Laden was not a major player. It states that labeling the groups Al Qaeda was a convenient way to raise the level of fear in the US (and the world) and helped Bin Laden recurit. The point is that they needed each other to gain power.
Your argument that they are a loose organization of people is well, the only way an organization like that could survive, if they weren't generally autonomous they would be easily tracked down and killed.
Also it's important to note that you've probably not fact checked all the claims in the "Power of nightmares"...
Scott, you do realize that the power of nightmare argues that the neo-conservatives and the Islamic extremest groups needed each other to grow. It in no way says that Osama Bin Laden was not a major player. It states that labeling the groups Al Qaeda was a convenient way to raise the level of fear in the US (and the world) and helped Bin Laden recurit. The point is that they needed each other to gain power.
Your argument that they are a loose organization of people is well, the only way an organization like that could survive, if they weren't generally autonomous they would be easily tracked down and killed.
Also it's important to note that you've probably not fact checked all the claims in the "Power of nightmares"...
I know what the movie said. It is just one source that I listed.
Since no one here is in a position to offer primary sources and the weight of popular opinion is on Andrew's side lets assume he's right and Scott's wrong.
Now, what impact does Osama bin Laden's death have on anything?
Will the War on Terror end? No.
Will Al Qaeda and their 10,000 franchises disband, apologize and stop being assholes / desperate hopeless angry young men? No.
Will the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan end? No.
Will the Patriot Act be repealed? No.
Will the GOP have a change of heart, offer reconciliation and become willing to work with Dems like adults? No.
Beyond the fulfillment of 100 million revenge fantasies and some stirring pictures of fire fighters the death of ObL means nothing. I don't even think it will have much impact on the elections as anyone who might base their vote on the death of a terrorist will still be mad about gas prices, unemployment, death taxes, socialism and the fact that Obama has a funny name and is probably a secret Muslim.
Will Al Qaeda and their 10,000 franchises disband, apologize and stop being assholes / desperate hopeless angry young men? No.
Well, there will be some sort of struggle and confusion as to who will speak for the organization if the franchises decide to speak out. It will potentially cause some cells to do reckless behavior that will get them (hopefully) quickly caught. Not to mention they now don't have a "uniting figure" and they will start to fracture more. It's also a big morale boost for us and a loss for them. He had evaded capture for so long that they probably thought he was "special" in some way. It also gives us a bit more momentum which is also very useful.
I don't think you understand how much this has hit the American image of power that we couldn't find this one little dude.
If he'd been pulled filthy and whimpering from a spider hole, given a trial, exposed as the cowardly sickly wretch that he was and hanged I'd be inclined to agree, but getting killed in a shootout with Navy SEALs just makes him look like a bad ass. The fact that it took 10 years for it to happen and that he was living at the center of one of America's supposed allies just makes the US look foolish.
If he'd been pulled filthy and whimpering from a spider hole, given a trial, exposed as the cowardly sickly wretch that he was and hanged I'd be inclined to agree, but getting killed in a shootout with Navy SEALs just makes him look like a bad ass. The fact that it took 10 years for it to happen and that he was living at the center of one of America's supposed allies just makes the US look foolish.
Well, reports are that he was hiding behind an unarmed woman during said shootout. This should make him look more like a coward than a badass -- especially among the hardcore Jihaddis who support him given their views on women.
If he'd been pulled filthy and whimpering from a spider hole, given a trial, exposed as the cowardly sickly wretch that he was and hanged I'd be inclined to agree, but getting killed in a shootout with Navy SEALs just makes him look like a bad ass. The fact that it took 10 years for it to happen and that he was living at the center of one of America's supposed allies just makes the US look foolish.
That is probably a matter of perspective. Because I don't really see that.
That is probably a matter of perspective. Because I don't really see that.
Agreed - Because It doesn't matter if he was slotted by Navy Seals or your 60 year old next door neighbor, dead is dead is dead.
To be honest, part of me wishes he was taken alive, tried, convicted, and sentenced to life without the possibility of parole among the general population of the toughest federal "pound you in the ass" prison in the country. Oh, and that the wardens don't pay too much attention to him while he's locked up. However, this probably violates all sorts of human rights laws and treaties, so being killed in a shoot-out with Navy SEALs is probably better for all involved.
Well, reports are that he was hiding behind an unarmed woman during said shootout. This should make him look more like a coward than a badass -- especially among the hardcore Jihaddis who support him given their views on women.
There are reports that Davy Crockett begged for his life before being killed at the Alamo. Martyrs are either excused for such indiscretions or they are dismissed as smears.
I'd like to cut and paste something I've said elsewhere which may be of interest, if you'll pardon it -
What they did sends a stronger message than burying him wrapped in the skin of a pig, or any of that business. We could have defiled the corpse and left it in the middle of fuck nowhere - as was expected, I'd imagine - but instead, we gave it a respectful burial in accordance to islamic tradition, in a place it would be extremely hard to set up a shrine or recover the body.
It Osama called for the violent deaths and improper burials of Americans, he was all about the defiling of corpses, and making sure that his enemies were not given any respect under his system of beliefs. By us taking a step up and giving him a respectful burial, not only are we mitigating outraged response from the Islamic world, we're also saying very very clearly "We don't consider you enough of an enemy to commit unto you the savage and disrespectful acts you wished to do with us. You and your friends are of little threat."
It's actually some very masterful manipulation, on the part of the US. I'm extremely impressed.
Only if they'd managed it 2 weeks after 9/11 instead of 10 years. Now, instead of a religious fanatic and a criminal he's a brave soldier who struck the most deadly blow against the Great Satan, bled it in two wars, eluded its assassins for a decade in the heart of its closest ally and died in a hail of gun fire from its most elite warriors. The fact that the SEALs refrained from uploading video of them Tea Bagging his corpse to YouTube isn't much of a win.
Comments
Also, you should watch everything Adam Curtis does.
Power of Nightmares
Century of Self
The Trap
Bin Laden has been rather crippled in the last ten years. The mere knowledge of our manhunt put him into perpetual hiding. We're certainly not safer now than we were yesterday.
Politically, Bin Laden's death is like a prize out of the cereal box. Siblings (republicans and democrats) will squabble over who gets to claim it, but in the end it is not important enough to change anybody's mind about anything. Both sides will mutter that they own it as they gradually cast it aside as irrelevant.
Once the threat has been removed, let's move on. He cannot do anything, let's not jeer him. Let's just move past this and focus on the current threats.
Your argument that they are a loose organization of people is well, the only way an organization like that could survive, if they weren't generally autonomous they would be easily tracked down and killed.
Also it's important to note that you've probably not fact checked all the claims in the "Power of nightmares"...
Now, what impact does Osama bin Laden's death have on anything?
Will the War on Terror end? No.
Will Al Qaeda and their 10,000 franchises disband, apologize and stop being assholes / desperate hopeless angry young men? No.
Will the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan end? No.
Will the Patriot Act be repealed? No.
Will the GOP have a change of heart, offer reconciliation and become willing to work with Dems like adults? No.
Beyond the fulfillment of 100 million revenge fantasies and some stirring pictures of fire fighters the death of ObL means nothing. I don't even think it will have much impact on the elections as anyone who might base their vote on the death of a terrorist will still be mad about gas prices, unemployment, death taxes, socialism and the fact that Obama has a funny name and is probably a secret Muslim.
✓ Saddam Hussein ✓ Osama Bin Laden ☠Michael Bay
I don't think you understand how much this has hit the American image of power that we couldn't find this one little dude.
What they did sends a stronger message than burying him wrapped in the skin of a pig, or any of that business. We could have defiled the corpse and left it in the middle of fuck nowhere - as was expected, I'd imagine - but instead, we gave it a respectful burial in accordance to islamic tradition, in a place it would be extremely hard to set up a shrine or recover the body.
It Osama called for the violent deaths and improper burials of Americans, he was all about the defiling of corpses, and making sure that his enemies were not given any respect under his system of beliefs. By us taking a step up and giving him a respectful burial, not only are we mitigating outraged response from the Islamic world, we're also saying very very clearly "We don't consider you enough of an enemy to commit unto you the savage and disrespectful acts you wished to do with us. You and your friends are of little threat."
It's actually some very masterful manipulation, on the part of the US. I'm extremely impressed.