I acquired a flare gun by accident in the course of playing. Still gotta play to win even if the concept is bullshit.
Incidentally, the flare gun is inferior to the stock standard shotgun in the majority of situations, so if you were playing to win chances are you were doing it wrong. It only does 30 damage per hit, and fires a relatively slow-moving projectile that is rather easy to dodge. While being set on fire is annoying, it's hardly a huge problem unless you're the only medic on a team, and even then your team should leave you a health kit.
Shotgun is also very useful against enemies who aren't stupid and are staying out of the range of your flamethrower - scouts in particular are wont to do this, and they're faster than you even when they're moving backwards. Engineers, Medics and other Pyros all move at the same speed you do, (90% as fast when moving backwards), so this is a serious issue if you're a pyro. Medics are slightly faster than you are, and almost as fast when moving backwards as you are when moving forwards (96%), and the Demoman is only slightly slower than you are (93%/84% backwards). In particular, in pyro vs pyro, a pyro with a shotgun will (or should) completely crush one with the flaregun into the ground, because the shotgun does far, far more damage, and pyros can't be set on fire.
Incidentally, the flare gun is inferior to the stock standard shotgun in the majority of situations
If you think so, you're playing Pyro wrong. Drop onto the enemy, light them. If they flee, fire them flares to get crit hits (90 damage), not to mention it has good range and is more reliable than the shotgun. Seriously, Pyro's shotgun is crap compared to that flaregun.
Incidentally, the flare gun is inferior to the stock standard shotgun in the majority of situations
If you think so, you're playing Pyro wrong. Drop onto the enemy, light them. If they flee, fire them flares to get crit hits (90 damage), not to mention it has good range and is more reliable than the shotgun. Seriously, Pyro's shotgun is crap compared to that flaregun.
All shotguns are the same, and they definitely aren't crap, not even compared to the flaregun you seem to have in your head.
Also sometimes it's not about killing an enemy, sometimes just making enemy retreat to douse the fire is helpful to the team. And like Air Collective mentioned crits on burning enemies makes it good way of finishing enemies that you have already ignited.
The flare gun is also useless near water, leaving the pyro 100% useless if he has to go there - e.g. if someone goes that way with the intelligence.
One use I'll grant for the flaregun is against snipers, since by necessity they aren't very mobile so you can hit them at long range - assuming they don't see you first and kill you... I'll grant that crits on burning enemies are pretty decent, but I can't agree with this argument:
Incidentally, the flare gun is inferior to the stock standard shotgun in the majority of situations
If you think so, you're playing Pyro wrong. Drop onto the enemy, light them. If they flee, fire them flares to get crit hits (90 damage), not to mention it has good range and is more reliable than the shotgun. Seriously, Pyro's shotgun is crap compared to that flaregun.
If you can drop onto the enemy and light them, and they start running away, then you're already in flamethrower range and might as well keep burning and chasing them. They can only get away from you if they're a scout - and if the scout is any good they'll be dodging as they do it, so you pretty much won't hit them with your flares anyway. Alternatively, they're a soldier or demo and they rocket/sticky jumped away from you. In principle, I'll grant that you could flaregun them in mid-air because aerial motion is rather predictable, but I'd like to see you do it.
The rest of the time, if you've dropped onto the enemy and lit them, and they're running away, you've already won the fight, and you can finish it quicker if you continue to flamethrower them, or switch to shotgun and shoot them while you're still fairly close. If the guy you burned is escaping to his teammates and you can't chase them, then the flaregun isn't going to help much either, because the fact that you can't chase them means they can afford to move more randomly from side to side, and if they're heading towards their teammates they'll make it to a medic and get healed anyway.
I won't say it's useless, but the flare gun is worse than the shotgun, especially in pyro vs pyro where not having a shotgun is suicide.
All shotguns are the same, and they definitely aren't crap, not even compared to the flaregun you seem to have in your head.
Yes, all shotguns are the same. They're all pretty crappy. There's a reason why Mr. Lvl 3 sentry building Engineer has a standard shotgun as primary weapon. Because it's crap. His sentry is supposed to do most of the killing. The shotgun is to fend off the spies jumping out of melee range.
As for 'the flaregun I have in my head'. That's the one in the game. If someone runs out of your flame-thrower's range, they're going to be out of the range of that shotgun as well. Not to mention, they're likely running away to get distance between you and them so they can kill you before burning up, OR to lure you into engie's sentry (which you'll run into if you want to make use of that shotgun), OR to just get a medic/FAK.
I'll admit there's a degree of preference here, but in my opinion, the flaregun gives much appreciated range to the Pyro while fitting perfectly with the playstyle needed for pyro.
Sorry, but you are way, way off with your comment on the shotgun.
Yes, all shotguns are the same. They're all pretty crappy. There's a reason why Mr. Lvl 3 sentry building Engineer has a standard shotgun as primary weapon. Because it's crap. His sentry is supposed to do most of the killing.
A properly used shotgun should still do ~20 damage per hit from a fair way outside of flamethrower range, and ~80 damage per hit up close, and that's hardly insignificant. It also fires three times as fast as the flare gun does.
The shotgun is to fend off the spies jumping out of melee range.
In melee range, a shotgun will still easily outdamage a melee weapon. The only advantage melee weapons have is that they don't require ammo and are easier to aim.
As for 'the flaregun I have in my head'. That's the one in the game. If someone runs out of your flame-thrower's range, they're going to be out of the range of that shotgun as well.
Not quite; the shotgun is still pretty decent at a significantly longer range than the flamethrower, and every little bit of range counts when your movement speeds are very similar - as they are with pyro and most other classes in the game. Also, keep in mind that the flamethrower's damage drops off pretty quickly with range, due to a linear decrease in damage per particle, and increased spread as the flame particles get further away. Sure, the shotgun's damage also drops off with range, but it would be interesting to know what the tipping point is at which shotgun does more damage than the flamethrower.
Not to mention, they're likely running away to get distance between you and them so they can kill you before burning up
Like I said before, every class but scout is either the same speed as you or slower, so they can't really get away from you.
OR to lure you into engie's sentry (which you'll run into if you want to make use of that shotgun)
So they ran around a corner. How is the flare gun going to fare any better in that situation?
,OR to just get a medic/FAK.
If it's a medic, he's with other teammates and you're fucked anyway. If it's a FAK, well, you kill them before they get there.
If you'd like to, you can come to the server so that we can both get a better idea of flamethrower vs shotgun in terms of damage vs range.
Guys, I really want to kick ass/play in this scrim, but I've never even heard of most of the special or unlockable weapokns you are talking about. And I don't have the time or energy to go about "acquiring" them, however you do that.
Please make it any weapon or only the standard set. List of weapons immediately creates a ball ache for everyone involved.
Another note: If you want to play, make sure your name is on the list of 29 players in the first post. If it isn't, you're going to be left out unless you do something about it.
I prefer the flaregun simply because I've used it long enough to hit with quite reliably, but my degreaser/flaregun/axetinguisher combo (AKA puff and sting pyro) suffers heavily because you are basically incapable of hurting other pyros; my flamethrower does less damage, my axe can't hurt much unless you are already burning, but pyros are immune to flame, and the flaregun can't burn either.
As attached as I am to my Flaregun and Direct Hit, I think just doing it straight Standard Weapons Only would be the best way. I agree that there are some weapons that fundamentally change a class, and those would be nice to have, but I think at the end of the day the point of the scrimmage was to have some simple competitive fun, and that the base game is just fine for that. Complicating it any further, even just a little bit, seems unnecessary, regardless of balance or fairness or bullshittery or whatever.
Honestly, if you put out the list, I won't go out of my way to find them, I'll play with what I have, worst case scenario, most stock weapons/2 tier weapons are just fine.
I really meant it when I said I'm not doing an item-by-item whitelist. I wasn't kidding, or putting it up for debate. What I'm considering doing is having this scrim be all-items, and if it goes well enough, having a second standard-items scrim. If you want, I can reverse the order on that, but it's one of the two.
Seriously. Not doing item-by-item whitelists. If I do that, I'll end up listening to hours and hours of bitching about which items are OP and which aren't. And that's from a group I consider relatively sane.
I really meant it when I said I'm not doing an item-by-item whitelist. I wasn't kidding, or putting it up for debate. What I'm considering doing is having this scrim be all-items, and if it goes well enough, having a second standard-items scrim. If you want, I can reverse the order on that, but it's one of the two.
Seriously. Not doing item-by-item whitelists. If I do that, I'll end up listening to hours and hours of bitching about which items are OP and which aren't. And that's from a group I consider relatively sane.
I'm for all standard weapons by the way. Simple competition on the most basic level on how the classes were supposed to play is the best in my opinion.
I really meant it when I said I'm not doing an item-by-item whitelist. I wasn't kidding, or putting it up for debate.
It doesn't matter; you don't need to be the one to enforce a whitelist or blacklist. It can be done by mutual trust.
What I'm considering doing is having this scrim be all-items, and if it goes well enough, having a second standard-items scrim. If you want, I can reverse the order on that, but it's one of the two.
Seriously. Not doing item-by-item whitelists. If I do that, I'll end up listening to hours and hours of bitching about which items are OP and which aren't. And that's from a group I consider relatively sane.
There is only one item I consider to be a very serious problem, and that's the Wrangler. Honestly, I simply do not understand why people think a white/blacklist would be such a big hassle, or that somehow everyone here will become a bunch of little whining babies.
I guess we should take this to a vote between no unlocks, all unlocks, or a whitelist/blacklist enforced by mutual agreement (not by Neito). My prediction: no unlocks will win by a landslide.
So far: 6/6 votes for no unlocks. Looks pretty decisive already, but keep voting, as there are 32 people on the list. EDIT: Speaking of mutual trust, I'm pretty sure someone is spamming the form, we're now at 11/12 with 4 of them being within 12 seconds (the 12th was for "Who the fuck cares?"). I don't care; the vote still counts, though I'm amused but also dismayed that someone would do it. Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet money that Air Co. was the one who did it, though the bet would be pointless as there's no way to confirm it.
EDIT2: Getting back to the stuff that matters most, we still need team captains. If we don't get captains soon, I think we should try to allocate players with a group effort.
I would argue that the game may in fact be more out of balance with no unlocks then with all unlocks. Since the unlocks were created to help fix imbalances in the class system that occurred over time as players became skillful, additionally some of the original weapons were altered to improve their balance with the new weapons and to improve balance in game modes that were not originally in the game (ie: Pyros airblast.) So if you want to bar unlocks, then I would argue you then have to ban any original weapons that were altered as well. Which is of course ridiculous since this would make whole classes unusable.
tl;dr The game is balanced for the weapons that exist now, and is no longer balanced for the original load outs.
The main reason for banning unlocks is to make the scrim fair by ensuring that all players have access to the same weapons. As a secondary reason, I feel that the game is still better with no unlocks than it is if everyone has access to everything, because of things like the Wrangler and the Sandman.
So if you want to bar unlocks, then I would argue you then have to ban any original weapons that were altered as well.
Why? Everyone has access to the airblast on the pyro, so there's no need to ban it.
I do think that certain unlocks make the game better, such as the Kritzkrieg and the Bonk, but as much as I think those items are good additions to the game, I'd rather ban them if there will be people playing medic and scout in the scrim who don't have those items. I do think, however, that as a collective we'd probably have enough extras and crafting gear to supply the less fortunate among us with at least one important weapon like the Kritzkrieg.
I record the same opinion as my vote - Who cares? Less QQ more Pew Pew, just play some bloody TF2, for fuck's sake. It's a Friendly match between forumites, not a fucking tournament for money, so whatever we do, can we just hurry up and quit the "No Items Fox only Final destination" crap? Jesus wept, by the time we're finished cocking about, We'll all be playing Half Life 3.
I record the same opinion as my vote - Who cares? Less QQ more Pew Pew, just play some bloody TF2, for fuck's sake. It's a Friendly match between forumites, not a fucking tournament for money, so whatever we do, can we just hurry up and quit the "No Items Fox only Final destination" crap? Jesus wept, by the time we're finished cocking about, We'll all be playing Half Life 3.
That.
And someone just choose the captains and be done with it, if you all expect people to come forth, well be here for a long time waiting.
I've tried writing this post a few times, but I find myself constantly going back to...
It's a Friendly match between forumites, not a fucking tournament for money, so whatever we do, can we just hurry up and quit the "No Items Fox only Final destination" crap?
So if this thing is supposed to be about skill, then fine lets play vanilla in Dustbowl 24/7. But if this is about having a fun semi-competitive game with forum people, then fuck the stupid rules and let's have fun and not bog everything down in ridiculous rules.
Additionally fuck the whole captains thing, if there are players who are more skilled then others just make sure there is a balance between teams of those people, and just randomly assign everyone else in-game. Let's just have a bit more organized pick up and play and less seriousness.
Also, I note that this "debate" is only necessary because the game is fundamentally broken as a stateless competition and external work must be done to acquire the items necessary for balanced play.
I'll also note that none of these items are necessary for the Scout to be fully effective as a class. I posit that NONE of the items are necessary for balance.
If this drama escalates, I'm bailing. Jesus you kids. ;^)
ANYWAY, obviously, asking everybody for advice was a mistake. It just means I have to try to reconcile 32 different opinions, when we all know most of us are going to play this pretty much no matter what. So these are the final decisions, no more debate, back to promoting yourselves for the various team captains. Plus, with so many options, I get analysis paralysis.
1. This scrim will be standard weapons only. If we get enough people to do another scrim, we'll do the next one of this type with extended weapons. 2. As soon as Jason gets on, I'm going to confirm with him if he wants to be a team captain. If he does, the captains will be me, him, Andrew, and GreyHuge. If he doesn't want to, I have a couple other people in mind. 3. We'll do a secret draft starting tomorrow (Monday, here in Massachusetts) at 6 PM Eastern, 5 PM Central, figure it out for the rest of the time zones. Make sure you've got contact information in IDShare or in your Profile. 4. Unless we keep bitching and fucking this up and make Rym drop out, it'll be four teams of 8 (obviously). No restrictions on classes (We're not doing Highlander mode or anything crazy like that. Scout Rushes will be a valid strategy) 5. SV_Pure is going to be 1 with a default whitelist (In other words, what the server already is). That will prevent most wallhacking and such, while still allowing hilarious sprays. Anyone who would cheat here is a dick, anyway, and there's nobody here who's that much of a dick.
I don't think we're debating which items are balanced, but rather which items are game changers. Personally, I would be happy with base or base + huntsman, but I don't want to get involved.
I think we should alternate between days where we are "Standard Items Only" and "Unlocked Items Allowed." They don't offer that much variety, but it can offer some different play styles with Huntsman Sniper, DemoKnight, and EternalReward Spy.
Comments
Shotgun is also very useful against enemies who aren't stupid and are staying out of the range of your flamethrower - scouts in particular are wont to do this, and they're faster than you even when they're moving backwards.
Engineers, Medics and other Pyros all move at the same speed you do, (90% as fast when moving backwards), so this is a serious issue if you're a pyro. Medics are slightly faster than you are, and almost as fast when moving backwards as you are when moving forwards (96%), and the Demoman is only slightly slower than you are (93%/84% backwards).
In particular, in pyro vs pyro, a pyro with a shotgun will (or should) completely crush one with the flaregun into the ground, because the shotgun does far, far more damage, and pyros can't be set on fire.
One use I'll grant for the flaregun is against snipers, since by necessity they aren't very mobile so you can hit them at long range - assuming they don't see you first and kill you...
I'll grant that crits on burning enemies are pretty decent, but I can't agree with this argument:If you can drop onto the enemy and light them, and they start running away, then you're already in flamethrower range and might as well keep burning and chasing them. They can only get away from you if they're a scout - and if the scout is any good they'll be dodging as they do it, so you pretty much won't hit them with your flares anyway. Alternatively, they're a soldier or demo and they rocket/sticky jumped away from you. In principle, I'll grant that you could flaregun them in mid-air because aerial motion is rather predictable, but I'd like to see you do it.
The rest of the time, if you've dropped onto the enemy and lit them, and they're running away, you've already won the fight, and you can finish it quicker if you continue to flamethrower them, or switch to shotgun and shoot them while you're still fairly close.
If the guy you burned is escaping to his teammates and you can't chase them, then the flaregun isn't going to help much either, because the fact that you can't chase them means they can afford to move more randomly from side to side, and if they're heading towards their teammates they'll make it to a medic and get healed anyway.
I won't say it's useless, but the flare gun is worse than the shotgun, especially in pyro vs pyro where not having a shotgun is suicide.
As for 'the flaregun I have in my head'. That's the one in the game. If someone runs out of your flame-thrower's range, they're going to be out of the range of that shotgun as well. Not to mention, they're likely running away to get distance between you and them so they can kill you before burning up, OR to lure you into engie's sentry (which you'll run into if you want to make use of that shotgun), OR to just get a medic/FAK.
I'll admit there's a degree of preference here, but in my opinion, the flaregun gives much appreciated range to the Pyro while fitting perfectly with the playstyle needed for pyro.
If you'd like to, you can come to the server so that we can both get a better idea of flamethrower vs shotgun in terms of damage vs range.
Please make it any weapon or only the standard set. List of weapons immediately creates a ball ache for everyone involved.
Seriously. Not doing item-by-item whitelists. If I do that, I'll end up listening to hours and hours of bitching about which items are OP and which aren't. And that's from a group I consider relatively sane.
I guess we should take this to a vote between no unlocks, all unlocks, or a whitelist/blacklist enforced by mutual agreement (not by Neito).
My prediction: no unlocks will win by a landslide.
Everyone vote here.
Alternatively, someone else make a forum poll or something.
EDIT: Speaking of mutual trust, I'm pretty sure someone is spamming the form, we're now at 11/12 with 4 of them being within 12 seconds (the 12th was for "Who the fuck cares?"). I don't care; the vote still counts, though I'm amused but also dismayed that someone would do it.
Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet money that Air Co. was the one who did it, though the bet would be pointless as there's no way to confirm it.
EDIT2:
Getting back to the stuff that matters most, we still need team captains.
If we don't get captains soon, I think we should try to allocate players with a group effort.
tl;dr The game is balanced for the weapons that exist now, and is no longer balanced for the original load outs.
I do think that certain unlocks make the game better, such as the Kritzkrieg and the Bonk, but as much as I think those items are good additions to the game, I'd rather ban them if there will be people playing medic and scout in the scrim who don't have those items. I do think, however, that as a collective we'd probably have enough extras and crafting gear to supply the less fortunate among us with at least one important weapon like the Kritzkrieg.
And someone just choose the captains and be done with it, if you all expect people to come forth, well be here for a long time waiting.
Additionally fuck the whole captains thing, if there are players who are more skilled then others just make sure there is a balance between teams of those people, and just randomly assign everyone else in-game. Let's just have a bit more organized pick up and play and less seriousness.
I'll also note that none of these items are necessary for the Scout to be fully effective as a class. I posit that NONE of the items are necessary for balance.
ANYWAY, obviously, asking everybody for advice was a mistake. It just means I have to try to reconcile 32 different opinions, when we all know most of us are going to play this pretty much no matter what. So these are the final decisions, no more debate, back to promoting yourselves for the various team captains. Plus, with so many options, I get analysis paralysis.
1. This scrim will be standard weapons only. If we get enough people to do another scrim, we'll do the next one of this type with extended weapons.
2. As soon as Jason gets on, I'm going to confirm with him if he wants to be a team captain. If he does, the captains will be me, him, Andrew, and GreyHuge. If he doesn't want to, I have a couple other people in mind.
3. We'll do a secret draft starting tomorrow (Monday, here in Massachusetts) at 6 PM Eastern, 5 PM Central, figure it out for the rest of the time zones. Make sure you've got contact information in IDShare or in your Profile.
4. Unless we keep bitching and fucking this up and make Rym drop out, it'll be four teams of 8 (obviously). No restrictions on classes (We're not doing Highlander mode or anything crazy like that. Scout Rushes will be a valid strategy)
5. SV_Pure is going to be 1 with a default whitelist (In other words, what the server already is). That will prevent most wallhacking and such, while still allowing hilarious sprays. Anyone who would cheat here is a dick, anyway, and there's nobody here who's that much of a dick.