A friend of mine got married in his apartment. They had planned it to be more ceremonious, but needed to rush it so that they could be on The Newlyweds Game.
Thanks... Silliness about it being a tragedy aside, the baby's due very close to PAX East 2013. The baby probably won't be born during PAX, but within a couple weeks before PAX, so if I want mommy to not want to kill me, I'm going to miss PAX next year to spend time with her and baby. Worth it, but still... :P
== every movement has its idiots irrelevant to the legitimacy of the movement. see atheism + misogyny.
But the main problem with feminism and social justice is that not only are the problems often ignored or unrecognized, but people who point them out are actively attacked for doing so, and it's not small enough of a problem to say "Hey, it's just a small few assholes" - like my example of people attacking Mia for pointing out how Germaine Greer needs to step the fuck back and think about what she's saying before advocating Female Genital Mutilation on national TV.
That, and the fact that Germaine Greer is saying these things, despite being one of the most respected figures in the Feminist movement. And Sheila Jefferies, and her rampant transphobia, and Gail Dines, who only thinks women should have the freedom to make choices she approves of. All respected figures of the movement, and in all cases, god help those who publically call them on their bullshit.
== every movement has its idiots irrelevant to the legitimacy of the movement. see atheism + misogyny.
But the main problem with feminism and social justice is that not only are the problems often ignored or unrecognized, but people who point them out are actively attacked for doing so, and it's not small enough of a problem to say "Hey, it's just a small few assholes"
Do you REALLY believe feminism & social justice are the only movements with this problem? Do you really believe that a MAJORITY of those involved in that movement defend their leaders to the point of hypocrisy? And that it's only a problem for them and not everyone else? Really? Seriously?
Pointing fingers at other groups isn't really an argument. It's not an indictment only of that group, but it is VERY prevalent in that group. There's a reason that feminism is almost synonymous with misandry and it's not angry white men.
Do you REALLY believe feminism & social justice are the only movements with this problem?
I'll answer that question when you tell me when I implied or said that was the case. We're not talking about any other movements, so why bring them up? Also, if other movements have similar problems, how does that change even one iota the fact that these problems are present within the feminist movement?
Do you really believe that a MAJORITY of those involved in that movement defend their leaders to the point of hypocrisy?
I don't believe the majority of a worldwide movement spanning over a hundred years agree on fucking anything as a group. There is a point where a movement becomes large enough that not even the group's goals and achievements are a majority decision or action. And considering we're talking about such a long-standing, wide-spread and varied movement, I think it's far to say that point is long passed for the Feminist movement, and that's therefore a pointless question.
The only thing the movement can claim a majority moving together on on is a vaugely defined set of goals that boil down to equality. And when you ask a thousand different feminists how that should be achieved, and where the goals for the path leading to that destination should be set, you're going to get two thousand different answers.
Also, consider - if it were a case where there was indeed a unified movement where your statement about the majority is legitimate, therefore you MUST accept responsibility for the more odious parts of that unified movement, with no excuse of "Oh, but it's not the majority" - Because majority be damned, if the movement is that unified to even have such a majority - ie, one where one can claim that the majority not being involved is anything other than a numbers game, identical to the statement "The majority of humans are not murderers" - then the actions of parts of the group reflect upon and are the responsibility of that unified movement. In which case comes the question - Why isn't anybody bloody well trying to stop this fuckery?
Make your choice - either the movement is too large and factional for the actions of some groups to be the responsibility of the whole, and thus the factions that genuinely wish for equality and social justice should be fucking outraged and fighting these people right alongside the various sexists, racists, ableists and other nasty ists, OR it's a unified movement, these odious actions are the responsibility of the movement as a whole, despite not being the actions of the whole, and thus not only should the group be trying to stamp out and/or discourage this kind of behavior, they also share some of the shame that it was allowed to occur. You can't argue both sides, they're contradictory. Unless you have a different idea, which I'd be happy to hear.
And that it's only a problem for them and not everyone else? Really? Seriously?
I would like you to clarify precisely what you're asking, because it sounds a hell of a lot like you're asking if I think the problems in the feminist movement are only a problem for feminists and not everyone else, and therefore, a problem for them to deal with. In which case, the answer is Yes, but with the caveat that with certain problems - for example the rampant transphobia among the more radical portions of the movement - are a problem for other people, in the case of that example, the Trans community and their supporters.
To solve the problems, you must recognize them. I'm afraid that saying "Yeah, but they're not the MAJORITY, so it's not my fucking problem" is just not fucking good enough, especially when the people saying these absolutely horrible things are respected leaders and figures of the movement, the crème de la crème, the closest thing the movement has to a unifying and guiding force.
Frankly, Feminism is a movement that is slowly starting to rot, wither and die, corrupted from the inside by these actions, like a cancer. People like this are the diseased and dead wood that must be cut from the tree, lest it kill the entire plant.
And if Feminism as a movement wants to claim the great actions of people like Bella Abzug, Elaine Noble, Gloria E. Anzaldúa and Cherríe Moraga, and Audre Lorde without having the guts and moral strength to also claim the abhorrent actions of people like Gail Dines, Gloria Steinem, Germane Greer, Valerie Solanas or Kate Millett, then Feminisim is a movement that doesn't just deserve it's slow, rotting death, it damned well deserves to be put to the metaphorical sword, and replaced with something better, whatever form that may take.
I agree with everything Churba says except that I don't think Churba realizes how much various branches of feminism hate each other. The transphobes are hated by misandrists are hated by the radicals are hated by the intersectionalists are hated by liberals are hated by the academics and every possible configuration in between, and they scream and fight with an intensity that would put the angriest misogynist to shame. There is a degree of unity, but there is no majority; everyone has their own incompatible take. Welcome to post-third wave; what the fuck are we doing!
It's too big a concept to have just one viewpoint on it, and nothing can replace it because it would imply an abandonment of all the academic and political work that came before. It's not helped by the fact that everyone hates feminists, so they only get air time when they are reinforcing notions about all feminists being crazy man-hating nutjobs. Nobody even notices the people calling them out. The only thing that can and realistically will happen is change within the movement, because there is nothing that can replace it which won't simple be it.
All the history, good or bad, will always exist. There is no way to sweep it clear and to be honest it wouldn't be a good idea anyway because many of the extremists have or can express ideas others won't, even if on the whole they are a bunch of evil fucks and I'd sooner hang out with a republican. Furthermore, it's not like they've even done much in the way of lasting institutional harm due to the fact that they don't have any power, which is probably why they are feminists in the first place. If we're going to get angry at feminists over Valerie Solanas and dismiss the entire movement over it, we should probably shoot the religious in the streets.
Yeah, the second wave basically act as our old, weird, possibly fascist grandparents who tell good stories on the holidays but tend to litter them with uncomfortable racist terminology.
I agree with everything Churba says except that I don't think Churba realizes how much various branches of feminism hate each other.
I distance myself from the movement - not from individuals, just the movement - because of this. It doesn't help that my array of ideas that are not always the most agreeable doesn't help, either - I've had some of that hatred directed my way in the past for nothing more than differences of opinion, and frankly, I just decided to be done with it and figure my own shit out.
Nobody even notices the people calling them out.
I would say that, but I'm the noticing sort, and while I see it from time to time (re, my first example with people attacking a local journo down here for doing precisely that) it's not common in the slightest. In fact, the last piece I saw of that nature from a feminist(rather than someone on the outside attacking feminism as a whole) was in the Guardian, a few years ago. Everything else has been small-time blogs with about as many readers as I have fingers, and even that's not hugely common.
All the history, good or bad, will always exist. There is no way to sweep it clear and to be honest it wouldn't be a good idea anyway because many of the extremists have or can express ideas others won't. Furthermore, it's not like they've even done much in the way of lasting institutional harm due to the fact that they don't have any power, which is probably why they are feminists in the first place. If we're going to get angry at feminists over Valerie Solanas and dismiss the entire movement over it, we should probably shoot the religious in the streets.
Now, I'm not saying we Dismiss the entire movement over people like Ms Solanas. You can cut the dead wood without chopping down the whole tree. Even just standing up and saying "Yeah, something along the line got all fucked up, It won't happen again" would be an improvement - It's not like it hasn't happened before, after all, you don't often see feminists lauding the fact that many of the suffragettes arguments were atrociously racist, and you don't see them copying the form, because they know better, and the notion of equality now includes women of every race. It just needs - and I mean desperately needs - to happen again.
Do you REALLY believe feminism & social justice are the only movements with this problem?
I'll answer that question when you tell me when I implied or said that was the case. We're not talking about any other movements, so why bring them up? Also, if other movements have similar problems, how does that change even one iota the fact that these problems are present within the feminist movement?
I am *not* saying that there aren't problems that need fixing. It seemed as though you were singling out that group, as though problems inherent to most movements are somehow unique to it & as though that qualifies as a critique of the movement's ideology. I have heard such arguments as a basis for the invalidity of feminism, and was reacting to that. I am glad that has been clarified. I *do* think those things are being addressed, but on a personal level. I am lucky to be involved with a relatively non-dogmatic group.
Pointing fingers at other groups isn't really an argument. It's not an indictment only of that group, but it is VERY prevalent in that group. There's a reason that feminism is almost synonymous with misandry and it's not angry white men.
I do not think those reasons are what you think they are, nor do I think your perception of it is well-informed. Regardless, that isn't what I am talking about.
also lou: have the baby at pax and/or make it a famous pax baby
Not sure it's a good idea to bring a roughly one month old baby, give or take a couple weeks in either direction, to a con like PAX. Odds are the baby wouldn't even be on a normal sleep schedule yet -- so bringing it to PAX would be bad for the baby, bad for the mom, and probably bad for me (as my own sleep schedule will probably be screwed up as well). Although, does PAX have a discount price for infant badges? :P
I didn't know about the horrors of bad fresh mozzarella. The kind in ball form with brine and everything? It's a whole new kind of a horrid stench when dealing with cheese. @_@;
I didn't know about the horrors of bad fresh mozzarella. The kind in ball form with brine and everything? It's a whole new kind of a horrid stench when dealing with cheese. @_@;
I do not think those reasons are what you think they are, nor do I think your perception of it is well-informed. Regardless, that isn't what I am talking about.
By this you mean I'm not adequately steeped in doctrine to converse at your level of feminism-cum-Scientology. I'll consider that a point of pride.
I do not think those reasons are what you think they are, nor do I think your perception of it is well-informed. Regardless, that isn't what I am talking about.
By this you mean I'm not adequately steeped in doctrine to converse at your level of feminism-cum-Scientology. I'll consider that a point of pride.
So, you're around twenty years out of date? I guess people can be proud of anything...
Also, did you not notice in the last ten posts how feminism doesn't really act like a cult?
How some people think feminism works: "THE VAGINA IS GOOD. THE PENIS IS EVIL."
How good feminism actually works: "Women can do what they want with their bodies and be in porn and give blowjobs and be transwomen and still have rights and wages equal to men and that's a beautiful thing."
Comments
Edit, 2 inch splinter under my finger nail.
also pete: WELCOME BAHAHA
also lou: have the baby at pax and/or make it a famous pax baby
That, and the fact that Germaine Greer is saying these things, despite being one of the most respected figures in the Feminist movement. And Sheila Jefferies, and her rampant transphobia, and Gail Dines, who only thinks women should have the freedom to make choices she approves of. All respected figures of the movement, and in all cases, god help those who publically call them on their bullshit.
But really, congrats.
The only thing the movement can claim a majority moving together on on is a vaugely defined set of goals that boil down to equality. And when you ask a thousand different feminists how that should be achieved, and where the goals for the path leading to that destination should be set, you're going to get two thousand different answers.
Also, consider - if it were a case where there was indeed a unified movement where your statement about the majority is legitimate, therefore you MUST accept responsibility for the more odious parts of that unified movement, with no excuse of "Oh, but it's not the majority" - Because majority be damned, if the movement is that unified to even have such a majority - ie, one where one can claim that the majority not being involved is anything other than a numbers game, identical to the statement "The majority of humans are not murderers" - then the actions of parts of the group reflect upon and are the responsibility of that unified movement. In which case comes the question - Why isn't anybody bloody well trying to stop this fuckery?
Make your choice - either the movement is too large and factional for the actions of some groups to be the responsibility of the whole, and thus the factions that genuinely wish for equality and social justice should be fucking outraged and fighting these people right alongside the various sexists, racists, ableists and other nasty ists, OR it's a unified movement, these odious actions are the responsibility of the movement as a whole, despite not being the actions of the whole, and thus not only should the group be trying to stamp out and/or discourage this kind of behavior, they also share some of the shame that it was allowed to occur. You can't argue both sides, they're contradictory. Unless you have a different idea, which I'd be happy to hear. I would like you to clarify precisely what you're asking, because it sounds a hell of a lot like you're asking if I think the problems in the feminist movement are only a problem for feminists and not everyone else, and therefore, a problem for them to deal with. In which case, the answer is Yes, but with the caveat that with certain problems - for example the rampant transphobia among the more radical portions of the movement - are a problem for other people, in the case of that example, the Trans community and their supporters.
To solve the problems, you must recognize them. I'm afraid that saying "Yeah, but they're not the MAJORITY, so it's not my fucking problem" is just not fucking good enough, especially when the people saying these absolutely horrible things are respected leaders and figures of the movement, the crème de la crème, the closest thing the movement has to a unifying and guiding force.
Frankly, Feminism is a movement that is slowly starting to rot, wither and die, corrupted from the inside by these actions, like a cancer. People like this are the diseased and dead wood that must be cut from the tree, lest it kill the entire plant.
And if Feminism as a movement wants to claim the great actions of people like Bella Abzug, Elaine Noble, Gloria E. Anzaldúa and Cherríe Moraga, and Audre Lorde without having the guts and moral strength to also claim the abhorrent actions of people like Gail Dines, Gloria Steinem, Germane Greer, Valerie Solanas or Kate Millett, then Feminisim is a movement that doesn't just deserve it's slow, rotting death, it damned well deserves to be put to the metaphorical sword, and replaced with something better, whatever form that may take.
It's too big a concept to have just one viewpoint on it, and nothing can replace it because it would imply an abandonment of all the academic and political work that came before. It's not helped by the fact that everyone hates feminists, so they only get air time when they are reinforcing notions about all feminists being crazy man-hating nutjobs. Nobody even notices the people calling them out. The only thing that can and realistically will happen is change within the movement, because there is nothing that can replace it which won't simple be it.
All the history, good or bad, will always exist. There is no way to sweep it clear and to be honest it wouldn't be a good idea anyway because many of the extremists have or can express ideas others won't, even if on the whole they are a bunch of evil fucks and I'd sooner hang out with a republican. Furthermore, it's not like they've even done much in the way of lasting institutional harm due to the fact that they don't have any power, which is probably why they are feminists in the first place. If we're going to get angry at feminists over Valerie Solanas and dismiss the entire movement over it, we should probably shoot the religious in the streets.
I am glad that has been clarified. I *do* think those things are being addressed, but on a personal level. I am lucky to be involved with a relatively non-dogmatic group. I do not think those reasons are what you think they are, nor do I think your perception of it is well-informed. Regardless, that isn't what I am talking about.
(The fact that it cut my arm pretty bad is of no importance though.)
(Not really, it was mostly my bad for using an old pick with a nook in it, string got caught in it and snapped.)
Also, did you not notice in the last ten posts how feminism doesn't really act like a cult?
How good feminism actually works: "Women can do what they want with their bodies and be in porn and give blowjobs and be transwomen and still have rights and wages equal to men and that's a beautiful thing."