There's the contents of your well meaning pamphlet, and then there's real world practical application. It has nothing to do with being out of date. More like well weathered and having heard the pitch before.
The brochure sounds nice. Give you that.
(And no, WUB, the insidious stuff is WAY more subtle than PENIS BAD.)
(And no, WUB, the insidious stuff is WAY more subtle than PENIS BAD.)
I'm interested in hearing about all this obviously terrible "insidious stuff" and how you as a man are oh so oppressed by it.
EDIT: I assumed you were talking about insidious "misandry"-type stuff and not when some feminists make implicitly racist, homophobic, or transphobic statements, which is often a problem.
(And no, WUB, the insidious stuff is WAY more subtle than PENIS BAD.)
I'm interested in hearing about all this obviously terrible "insidious stuff" and how you as a man are oh so oppressed by it.
EDIT: I assumed you were talking about insidious "misandry"-type stuff and not when some feminists make implicitly racist, homophobic, or transphobic statements, which is often a problem.
Your continued insistence that bigotry against majority groups is impossible continues to entertain.
WUB: like I said, good on paper, but your movement is plagued with a very vocal, very visible subset for whom Andrea Dworkin was the second coming of Christ. I'm all rah rah for cultural objectivity/neutrality, but easier said than done.
Your continued insistence that bigotry against majority groups is impossible continues to entertain.
Prejudice against members of privileged groups is a thing that happens. However, there's no systemic oppression of those privileged groups, and so it doesn't severely impact your life.
Personally, I don't think prejudice and bigotry are the same thing. That kinda makes your reply a reply to something muppet didn't say or mean, nor has anything to do with oppression.
Third-Wave Feminism is a wholesale rejection of all the pornophobia, transphobia, misandry, and general hate of the Steinem and Dworkin era. And probably around 70% of the feminist movement is Third-Wave at this point, and the numbers of self-identifying First- and Second-Wave feminists (Steinem, Dworkin Feminists) is rapidly dwindling.
I think this might be an area where you need to do some serious reading. Inherently, feminism is, by definition of the word, an ideology that wants equal rights for men and women. I don't have any problem with the current, ultra-progressive Third-Wave movement.
I interpreted them to be interchangeable, so I'd like to know what you think the difference is.
Also, muppet was responding to my comment's implication that men aren't oppressed by the "insidious" parts of the feminist movement, so it was in part about oppression.
I interpreted them to be interchangeable, so I'd like to know what you think the difference is.
For a start, they're words that mean different things. Prejudice is opinion. Bigotry is not only a devotion to one's predjudices, but includes treating of the groups you have prejudices against with (often systemic) hatred and intolerance.
They go together hand in glove, but much like hands and gloves, they are not the same thing.
I interpreted them to be interchangeable, so I'd like to know what you think the difference is.
Prejudice is thought. Bigotry is action.
I often find myself thinking prejudiced thoughts about someone or some group that I meet, hear about, or see. While I know such pre-judgments are wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with me for having those thoughts. It's just part of the wiring of the human brain. We're programmed by evolutionary processes to be suspicious of out-groups and accepting of in-groups.
However, because I'm aware that such prejudices exists, I can make sure that I don't act on them, and I try to train my brain not to make the same connections in the future.
If I do act on my prejudices, those actions could be positive or negative. Only once they are negative am I on my way towards bigotry.
No, bigotry against (relatively) affluent white males doesn't seriously impact my life, but it seriously undermines the social justice movement. That's my point.
Third-Wave Feminism is a wholesale rejection of all the pornophobia, transphobia, misandry, and general hate of the Steinem and Dworkin era. And probably around 70% of the feminist movement is Third-Wave at this point, and the numbers of self-identifying First- and Second-Wave feminists (Steinem, Dworkin Feminists) is rapidly dwindling.
I think this might be an area where you need to do some serious reading. Inherently, feminism is, by definition of the word, an ideology that wants equal rights for men and women. I don't have any problem with the current, ultra-progressive Third-Wave movement.
This is also my point. If the message of the movement to the uninitiated or semi-initiated is "you need to do some serious reading [phallus wielding oppressor!!]", then the movement is doomed to fail. Until this thread I had never heard of the label "third wave feminism". That may be a personal failing or may not be, but whether it is or not is irrelevant. What's relevant is the effectiveness of the movement's message, which I'd class as "low". It's one thing to get everybody in your Women's Studies group to agree with you, and kudos if you've gotten most of your social circle to agree with you, but most of this stuff seems like it's going on in various echo chambers (much like the vast majority of internet based activism) and therefore is never going to amount to much. When most people think of feminism (and by most people, I mean the average person who probably does not participate in a forum like this one), they think of those Men vs Women memes they see plastered all over their facebook feed. That's a tough problem to overcome and the solution isn't telling people to read more.
When your movement is tied inextricably with prior movements or with vocal minorities, you have to manage the aggregate message. OWS has/had the same problem.
generally speaking, as an educated, privileged, and well-intentioned person, it behooves you to inform yourself via reading. Thus, "the message of the movement to the uninitiated or semi-initiated is 'you need to do some serious reading,'" minus the "[phallus wielding oppressor!!]" bit. see section marked "additionally"
You really get the impression from my posts in this thread that I'm against equal rights?!
This is the sort of pigeonholing that stifles discussion.
Vaguely, sure it behooves me to become educated as it does anyone, that was not my point. My point is that a movement that relies heavily on self motivated enlightenment is a sinking ship. Even its own adherents don't understand the core message. Modern feminism is an example of this. So is OWS.
As for "insidious" I'm mostly referring to the bits where the core message is perverted into tribalism by misunderstanding, which is RIFE among people calling themselves "feminists". By insulated I mean that you appear to travel in scholarly circles and frankly seem a bit naive about what the baseline cultural understanding of feminism is.
I'm not indicting your core principles. They're unassailable.
Vaguely, sure it behooves me to become educated as it does anyone, that was not my point. My point is that a movement that relies heavily on self motivated enlightenment is a sinking ship. Even its own adherents don't understand the core message. Modern feminism is an example of this. So is OWS.
so you're saying that people are predominantly assholes who give no shits, unless handed said shits via silver platter, reinforcing the predominant power structure shits are intended to question? that's what indoctrination is for!
I'm saying that if you want to jumpstart your cultural revolution, you're going to have to do some manual frontloading to overcome the existing cultural momentum and lagging education levels. If you want your common sense propositions to become emergent like you think they should be, you're going to have to fix most of the rest of society first.
Found a wounded bird that was attacked by my neighbor's chihuahua. Really going through a lot to help this guy, but there was a lot of irony going through for the last 24 hours.
Irony 1: http://askthevetpony.tumblr.com/ Was looking at this all yesterday. Irony 2: I was eating KFC for lunch and as I went to throw out the trash, I found the bird. Irony 3: Was listening to Alanis Morissette's "Ironic" as I was driving to get lunch. Irony 4: My local vet doesn't take care of birds, despite having pictures of them all over the wall.
Left him water, some seeds, a bug, a berry, and inside my backyard (Which is fenced) so I hope he heals up and flies off. Not sure how he'll do...
Cursive is the bane of my existence right now. How am I supposed to correct my students' spelling if I can barely read what they've written?! Damn them and their beautiful handwriting!!
Found a wounded bird that was attacked by my neighbor's chihuahua. Really going through a lot to help this guy, but there was a lot of irony going through for the last 24 hours.
Irony 1: http://askthevetpony.tumblr.com/ Was looking at this all yesterday. Irony 2: I was eating KFC for lunch and as I went to throw out the trash, I found the bird. Irony 3: Was listening to Alanis Morissette's "Ironic" as I was driving to get lunch. Irony 4: My local vet doesn't take care of birds, despite having pictures of them all over the wall.
Left him water, some seeds, a bug, a berry, and inside my backyard (Which is fenced) so I hope he heals up and flies off. Not sure how he'll do...
Adorable. Have you been able to figure out what kind of bird it is? As well as what kind of injuries it has? Good on you for helping the little guy out!
Comments
The brochure sounds nice. Give you that.
(And no, WUB, the insidious stuff is WAY more subtle than PENIS BAD.)
EDIT: I assumed you were talking about insidious "misandry"-type stuff and not when some feminists make implicitly racist, homophobic, or transphobic statements, which is often a problem.
WUB: like I said, good on paper, but your movement is plagued with a very vocal, very visible subset for whom Andrea Dworkin was the second coming of Christ. I'm all rah rah for cultural objectivity/neutrality, but easier said than done.
I think this might be an area where you need to do some serious reading. Inherently, feminism is, by definition of the word, an ideology that wants equal rights for men and women. I don't have any problem with the current, ultra-progressive Third-Wave movement.
Also, muppet was responding to my comment's implication that men aren't oppressed by the "insidious" parts of the feminist movement, so it was in part about oppression.
They go together hand in glove, but much like hands and gloves, they are not the same thing.
I often find myself thinking prejudiced thoughts about someone or some group that I meet, hear about, or see. While I know such pre-judgments are wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with me for having those thoughts. It's just part of the wiring of the human brain. We're programmed by evolutionary processes to be suspicious of out-groups and accepting of in-groups.
However, because I'm aware that such prejudices exists, I can make sure that I don't act on them, and I try to train my brain not to make the same connections in the future.
If I do act on my prejudices, those actions could be positive or negative. Only once they are negative am I on my way towards bigotry.
When your movement is tied inextricably with prior movements or with vocal minorities, you have to manage the aggregate message. OWS has/had the same problem.
Feminism just means a belief that women need equal rights to men. That's all. Tell me how that is insidious.
Thus, "the message of the movement to the uninitiated or semi-initiated is 'you need to do some serious reading,'" minus the "[phallus wielding oppressor!!]" bit. see section marked "additionally"
This is the sort of pigeonholing that stifles discussion.
Vaguely, sure it behooves me to become educated as it does anyone, that was not my point. My point is that a movement that relies heavily on self motivated enlightenment is a sinking ship. Even its own adherents don't understand the core message. Modern feminism is an example of this. So is OWS.
I'm not indicting your core principles. They're unassailable.
Irony 1: http://askthevetpony.tumblr.com/ Was looking at this all yesterday.
Irony 2: I was eating KFC for lunch and as I went to throw out the trash, I found the bird.
Irony 3: Was listening to Alanis Morissette's "Ironic" as I was driving to get lunch.
Irony 4: My local vet doesn't take care of birds, despite having pictures of them all over the wall.
Left him water, some seeds, a bug, a berry, and inside my backyard (Which is fenced) so I hope he heals up and flies off. Not sure how he'll do...