I'd ease up a bit on that doubt if I were you, Muppet.
Most of the girls I know at RIT are afraid of rape to some extent because of RIT's demographic and creepy student base.
Yes, it is a common, regular fear.
Well then things are a lot different in the current generation of college students than they were a generation ago.
You can all pigpile on me if you like, but I just find it hard to believe that every 20-something year old woman in the US (or the world, or whatever) is walking around with a constant fear of their imminent rape and murder. I think the suggestion that this is true is ludicrous and borders on hysterical.
muppet I think the counterpoint to that is summed up rather well by this quote.
“Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death.”
- Gavin de Becker
Do most women really fear rape and death? I mean, in the abstract, sure, but as often as men fear humiliation?
I seriously doubt it.
I'm not talking about fairness, here, I'm talking about temperance and moderation and avoiding knee-jerk reactions.
My girlfriend won't take a shortcut home literately up the street from where I live because there are no lights. Of the half-dozen women my age I interact with regularly, more than half have a self-defense weapon of some kind in their purses. Girls have confessed to me they dislike or outright avoid using public elevators, getting in taxis or busing home late because they are constantly uncomfortable. It is not isolated and these are not women I would define as weak or non-conformational; at least two of them could probably kick my ass in some capacity.
Read up on the concept of Schrodinger's Rapist. The constant message women get pretty much all the time is that men you do not know very well simply cannot be trusted and to be entirely fair I completely agree because we men as a whole have a terrible track record both of doing this shit and failing to call out our fellows on it, and an even bigger reason is because we as a culture reflexively blame the victim both for their victimization and the difficulty they have dealing with it later.
Also, remember, somewhere between one in three and one in five women will be raped in their lifetime. Somewhere around one in four men to one in eight men will sexually harass, abuse or rape a woman in their lifetime. It is not an isolated thing that happens so rarely it isn't worth talking about. If you know ten men, you know at least one rapist. That is reality.
I'm not saying it's constant, but there are more than a couple situations where it's a worry. When you're regularly walking back home after late-nights in the labs, or surrounded by people you don't know, we are taught not to trust people, and for women, they're taught not to trust men.
Yes, fear of being raped and killed is a normal thing. I'm lucky to have never been seriously harassed (maybe some minor stuff that I've brushed off because its so mundane) yet I still fear for my safety every now and then. Especially if I'm alone. I'm super paranoid about locking my car doors, I keep my phone close, I even play scenarios in my head of what I'd do if I was approached by a creepy person or attacked. Being in an environment that feels safe is very important to make that fear go away, that's why it was such a big deal for this PAX girl.
Also, any "no" is a "full-stop no." The word "no" is not a jokey, flirty word. I mean, if someone uses it as such and I stop and mess up the flow of the moment, whatever; I'm not taking chances on something as crucial as consent for the sake of romance.
I would tend to agree but inflection, tone, context, and body language are all a part of the communication. If you're tickling somebody and they're yelling "No, no, no!" in their best damsel in distress voice, is that a hard no? What if you kiss their nose and they giggle and say "Hey, stop that." Hard no? Get up and walk away level of "no"?
After the fact, any "no" can be portrayed as a hard no, but the credibility and intent of a "no" as it happens is not as clear cut as that.
So yes, if you want to be very unambiguous and literal you can take every no as a hard "no". Girls will think you're damaged goods with some sort of trauma rattling around in your brain and will move on, unless you date somebody in your Women's Studies class and have a preponderance of preemptive understanding set up between you on guidelines like this.
I've never felt prosecuted or under risk of prosecution of any sort flirting with ladies, even aggressively, in my entire life.
I never did either in my dating life, quite honestly, but I see this Andrea Dworkin level of misandry creeping into Women's Studies and in places like /r/twoxchromosomes and it gives me serious pause.
I think this is just a generational thing and I don't think we're gonna get anywhere.
I think the current dating/college generation is antsy as fuck and I think it's the fault of the same mindset that brought us lockdown drills and no-hugging rules in elementary schools.
muppet I think the counterpoint to that is summed up rather well by this quote.
“Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death.”
- Gavin de Becker
Do most women really fear rape and death? I mean, in the abstract, sure, but as often as men fear humiliation?
I seriously doubt it.
I'm not talking about fairness, here, I'm talking about temperance and moderation and avoiding knee-jerk reactions.
My girlfriend won't take a shortcut home literately up the street from where I live because there are no lights. Of the half-dozen women my age I interact with regularly, more than half have a self-defense weapon of some kind in their purses. Girls have confessed to me they dislike or outright avoid using public elevators, getting in taxis or busing home late because they are constantly uncomfortable. It is not isolated and these are not women I would define as weak or non-conformational; at least two of them could probably kick my ass in some capacity.
Read up on the concept of Schrodinger's Rapist. The constant message women get pretty much all the time is that men you do not know very well simply cannot be trusted and to be entirely fair I completely agree because we men as a whole have a terrible track record both of doing this shit and failing to call out our fellows on it, and an even bigger reason is because we as a culture reflexively blame the victim both for their victimization and the difficulty they have dealing with it later.
Also, remember, somewhere between one in three and one in five women will be raped in their lifetime. Somewhere around one in four men to one in eight men will sexually harass, abuse or rape a woman in their lifetime. It is not an isolated thing that happens so rarely it isn't worth talking about. If you know ten men, you know at least one rapist. That is reality.
Will YOU take a shortcut home through an area with no lights? I won't, and I'm a 6'2", 250 lb man.
There is a lot of victim blaming going on but I think there is also a lot of sentiment that is erroneously/unjustly labeled as blaming the victim when it's simply level-headedness and rationality.
Rapists are at fault for rape, and nobody else, but given that rapists exist, there are things one can do to try and minimize their chances of being raped. This also goes for theft, assault, robbery, car accidents, and any number of awful things that human beings do to other human beings. Victim blaming is a bad thing but swinging the pendulum so far back that suggesting precautions qualifies as victim blaming is also bad.
If I hear the word no, even a jokey no, I stop immediately. Because for fuck's sake, my desires are not important than maintaining clear lines of consent, and besides I don't want to deal with that sort of coy bullshit anyway. If you stop immediately upon hearing no and she asks why, all you have to say is "You said no." If she gives you grief about it, she is not worth your time.
I've never felt prosecuted or under risk of prosecution of any sort flirting with ladies, even aggressively, in my entire life.
Yeah, if you're a rational human being with any sort of civilization-compatible morality, surprise: you probably won't be accused of rape.
Something like 1 in 4 women is the victim of sexual harassment, sexual violence, or rape. It's a reasonable thing for women to fear rape all the time. One in four people will be involved in a car crash, so I keep my eyes on the road. One in four people have had an STI, so I wear a condom. It's an atrocity so prevalent that worrying about it is just good practice.
Will YOU take a shortcut home through an area with no lights? I won't, and I'm a 6'2", 250 lb man.
In the fucking suburbs of Ottawa? Yeah. Fuck, I'll do it in most places because even if it looks sketchy as fuck statistically it's still about twenty times more likely that I'll make it home safe to have my girlfriend bludgeon me to death with a golf trophy. And I don't own any golf trophies.
I've never felt prosecuted or under risk of prosecution of any sort flirting with ladies, even aggressively, in my entire life.
Yeah, if you're a rational human being with any sort of civilization-compatible morality, surprise: you probably won't be accused of rape.
Something like 1 in 4 women is the victim of sexual harassment, sexual violence, or rape. It's a reasonable thing for women to fear rape all the time. One in four people will be involved in a car crash, so I keep my eyes on the road. One in four people have had an STI, so I wear a condom. It's an atrocity so prevalent that worrying about it is just good practice.
Even if you are falsely accused, the courts are stacked in your favour to an insane degree, and it'll be far worse for her as a false accuser than it'll be for you as a convicted rapist because of how unjustly afraid we are about false accusations as opposed to, say, actual rape.
If you can't tell the difference between a coy "no" and a real "no" then you have no business fliritng with anyone. ;^)
It's all well and good to say this but then you engage in flirting with someone who's just a bit off and you fail to notice it, maybe you're having an off night, and things go badly for you.
This has never happened to me nor to anyone I know but I can certainly allow for the possibility. Women have confessed to accusing men of rape because they felt guilty about having sex the next day. Were they lying when they accused the guy, or lying about lying?
In this environment, guys take on a lot of risk. It's some scary shit out there.
And my only point in bringing it up is NOT to defend rapists, it's to say that this Simon dude should have a chance to put his side up before the internet pronounces sentence.
I've never felt prosecuted or under risk of prosecution of any sort flirting with ladies, even aggressively, in my entire life.
Yeah, if you're a rational human being with any sort of civilization-compatible morality, surprise: you probably won't be accused of rape.
Something like 1 in 4 women is the victim of sexual harassment, sexual violence, or rape. It's a reasonable thing for women to fear rape all the time. One in four people will be involved in a car crash, so I keep my eyes on the road. One in four people have had an STI, so I wear a condom. It's an atrocity so prevalent that worrying about it is just good practice.
Even if you are falsely accused, the courts are stacked in your favour to an insane degree, and it'll be far worse for her as a false accuser than it'll be for you as a convicted rapist because of how unjustly afraid we are about false accusations as opposed to, say, actual rape.
I don't think this is statistically borne out. Maybe in Canada? In the US, false accusations of rape often have zero consequences, and if the woman has got any trace amount of the guy's ejaculate, that is enough evidence of rape for a criminal court, coupled with her accusation.
For fuck's sake, guys take on almost no risk. False accusation is both incredibly rare and almost never convicted, and people like you not only mean that guys, even the sketchiest, scummiest guys, get the benefit of the doubt, but that so many women are afraid to come forward. Yes, even in the US. I'll go get the studies if you want, I have them all bookmarked.
Stop with this line of thought. It actually does real harm to actual people.
I'd like to see the preponderance of court cases that have led you to these conclusions which honestly seem to be coming from Wonderland, for all I can tell. Maybe in Georgia or fucking Iraq but here in the Northeast US? Fuck no.
False accusation is incredibly rare based on what evidence? Compared to what? Almost never convicted I'll agree with.
Women humiliated and afraid to come forward about rape I will also agree with. That's certainly a big problem.
If you want to read my argument as "Boo hoo men have it so tough because women get raped" then we can't have a serious conversation. I guess that's just how it is.
One of the worst feeling I've felt, as a man, is walking home at night and realizing there's a woman in front of me walking to the same general area. I slow down and usually go across the street, but I can definitely imagine her seeing me "following" her and thinking the worst. I'm really fucking angry that we live in a society where her fears are entirely justified.
One of the worst feeling I've felt, as a man, is walking home at night and realizing there's a woman in front of me walking to the same general area. I slow down and usually go across the street, but I can definitely imagine her seeing me "following" her and thinking the worst. I'm really fucking angry that we live in a society where her fears are entirely justified.
You could replace the terms here with "white person" and "black person" and the scenario, sentiment, and underlying statistics all still pan out.
You could replace the terms here with "white person" and "black person" and the scenario, sentiment, and underlying statistics all still pan out.
See, I live in a predominantly black and Puerto Rican neighborhood, and I have almost never felt threatened walking alone at night. And, as many of you know, I wear pretty fancy clothes everywhere. It's not the same thing.
It's not a one-to-one comparison, no, but given nationwide racial statistics on violent crime, the usual perpetrators, usual victims, and usual scenarios, a white guy walking home at night with a black guy "following" would be just as justified, statistically, in being nervous.
It's not a one-to-one comparison, no, but given nationwide racial statistics on violent crime, the usual perpetrators, usual victims, and usual scenarios, a white guy walking home at night with a black guy "following" would be just as justified, statistically, in being nervous.
So? What are you trying to get at? That me being nervous about getting raped/killed is just me being sexist/stereotypical/etc towards men?
Sorry but I'm going to do everything I can to protect myself, even if it means being over paranoid and causing myself stress. Since if it did happen I'd be chastised for not "exercising caution" and all. Also remember guys, not only do rape victims get blamed, are not always believed, don't get justice, etc, but they have to go through a totally humiliating and invasive rape kit. -_-
Comments
You can all pigpile on me if you like, but I just find it hard to believe that every 20-something year old woman in the US (or the world, or whatever) is walking around with a constant fear of their imminent rape and murder. I think the suggestion that this is true is ludicrous and borders on hysterical.
Read up on the concept of Schrodinger's Rapist. The constant message women get pretty much all the time is that men you do not know very well simply cannot be trusted and to be entirely fair I completely agree because we men as a whole have a terrible track record both of doing this shit and failing to call out our fellows on it, and an even bigger reason is because we as a culture reflexively blame the victim both for their victimization and the difficulty they have dealing with it later.
Also, remember, somewhere between one in three and one in five women will be raped in their lifetime. Somewhere around one in four men to one in eight men will sexually harass, abuse or rape a woman in their lifetime. It is not an isolated thing that happens so rarely it isn't worth talking about. If you know ten men, you know at least one rapist. That is reality.
Yes, fear of being raped and killed is a normal thing. I'm lucky to have never been seriously harassed (maybe some minor stuff that I've brushed off because its so mundane) yet I still fear for my safety every now and then. Especially if I'm alone. I'm super paranoid about locking my car doors, I keep my phone close, I even play scenarios in my head of what I'd do if I was approached by a creepy person or attacked. Being in an environment that feels safe is very important to make that fear go away, that's why it was such a big deal for this PAX girl.
After the fact, any "no" can be portrayed as a hard no, but the credibility and intent of a "no" as it happens is not as clear cut as that.
So yes, if you want to be very unambiguous and literal you can take every no as a hard "no". Girls will think you're damaged goods with some sort of trauma rattling around in your brain and will move on, unless you date somebody in your Women's Studies class and have a preponderance of preemptive understanding set up between you on guidelines like this.
There is a lot of victim blaming going on but I think there is also a lot of sentiment that is erroneously/unjustly labeled as blaming the victim when it's simply level-headedness and rationality.
Rapists are at fault for rape, and nobody else, but given that rapists exist, there are things one can do to try and minimize their chances of being raped. This also goes for theft, assault, robbery, car accidents, and any number of awful things that human beings do to other human beings. Victim blaming is a bad thing but swinging the pendulum so far back that suggesting precautions qualifies as victim blaming is also bad.
Something like 1 in 4 women is the victim of sexual harassment, sexual violence, or rape. It's a reasonable thing for women to fear rape all the time. One in four people will be involved in a car crash, so I keep my eyes on the road. One in four people have had an STI, so I wear a condom. It's an atrocity so prevalent that worrying about it is just good practice.
This has never happened to me nor to anyone I know but I can certainly allow for the possibility. Women have confessed to accusing men of rape because they felt guilty about having sex the next day. Were they lying when they accused the guy, or lying about lying?
In this environment, guys take on a lot of risk. It's some scary shit out there.
And my only point in bringing it up is NOT to defend rapists, it's to say that this Simon dude should have a chance to put his side up before the internet pronounces sentence.
Stop with this line of thought. It actually does real harm to actual people.
False accusation is incredibly rare based on what evidence? Compared to what? Almost never convicted I'll agree with.
Women humiliated and afraid to come forward about rape I will also agree with. That's certainly a big problem.
And of course racism is a part of kyriarchy.
Sorry but I'm going to do everything I can to protect myself, even if it means being over paranoid and causing myself stress. Since if it did happen I'd be chastised for not "exercising caution" and all. Also remember guys, not only do rape victims get blamed, are not always believed, don't get justice, etc, but they have to go through a totally humiliating and invasive rape kit. -_-