The episode gave me the notion of a Shroedinger's geek. There's a point where someone is simultaneously (Scott saying it) a geek and not a geek about a thing until observed.
IIRC, standing policy at PAX is that being a booth babe and demonstrating a significant lack of knowledge in the thing which you are selling will get your company in serious trouble and may result in you being asked to leave.
At all other industry cons, though, your point stands.
In other news, I probably qualify as number 2. I've met most of you guys at PAXes, but very rarely listen to shows.
I guess I'm sort of a number four? I listen to the show every once in a while, and have hung out with you guys on occasion, but I don't have my own FRC parking space.
Amusing thing, Rym calls him and Scott nerds, so...NerdNights?
But you guys were correct in that the dickishness of geeks towards fake geeks is that geeks believed that had to WORK for it to become a truly geeky person 10+ years ago. I remember reading a very sad article by Patton Oswalt where he was mad explaining how he felt special knowing about Boba Fett and fictional languages, when any person can walk into a movie theater, see a genre movie (like Avengers or Avatar) and be considered now a geeky person.
Aside from that, it's just sexist assholes as you two constantly confirmed.
Since it's relatively common to find introverts and a lack of social skills among nerds, is it possible that resentment of present-day casual fans exists because in the past, the culture was so homogeneous? It was easier for those introverts to get by, able to make any number of assumptions about the people they interacted with, and having the bond of shared backgrounds (they probably all got picked on).
I have a lot of 10 and 20 year older nerd friends from my long-standing D&D messageboard interactions and there is certainly some amount of homogeneousness to that culture that doesn't exist for my generation to as a great of a degree or to the next generation at-all.
This was a really good episode. It reminded me of a lot of the early episodes when Geeknights was a lot less focused and there was some fun meandering of topic. Please do more of these.
Also, I love the idea of simply referring to bigotry is "ist". I'm going to start using it.
Finally finished listening to the entire episode. Pretty much agree with all that was said. I also noticed that Scott and Rym more or less agree with me that the only people remotely likely of being "fake geeks" are booth babes and such who are paid to be so.
I still feel like I knew quite a few fake somethings in middle and high school. There were people that imitated interests in things for various reasons. On some level, most of the people were faking something.
I still feel like I knew quite a few fake somethings in middle and high school. There were people that imitated interests in things for various reasons. On some level, most of the people were faking something.
True... but that's in an environment where people often fake things just to "blend in." Plus, in a high school situation, it's not like you are spending tons of time and money to pretend to be something you're not -- as opposed to cosplaying at con.
I still feel like I knew quite a few fake somethings in middle and high school. There were people that imitated interests in things for various reasons. On some level, most of the people were faking something.
True... but that's in an environment where people often fake things just to "blend in." Plus, in a high school situation, it's not like you are spending tons of time and money to pretend to be something you're not -- as opposed to cosplaying at con.
To be fair, lots of people don't know who or what they want to be, when they're young.
Don't know if anyone remembers this, but there was this like drama shit some time last year with MC Chris where he kicked a fan out of a show for heckling his opener. I forget who the opener was, but he was heckled like crazy cause people thought he was a "fake nerd" that was just pandering to them. Absolutely blew my mind that there was a metric of legitimacy/realness in nerdcore, which is more or less pandering by definition.
Also IMO say "personal brand" instead of "culture" for this stuff.
I know it's petty and a matter of semantics, but this is another case where speaking in absolutes bothers me. I agree with 99.9% of everything people have said about the awfulness and sexism involved in judging someone's geek credentials, but I can't believe that the "fake geek girl," cannot, will not, and has never existed. I mean, there's gotta be one.
There are fake people all walks of life. It is by no means our place to question people and I would never advocate some "let's find the one exception to the rule" witchhunt. The main reason is that these fake people aren't really hurting anyone. If they feel the need to actively pretend to like something, at most I would just ignore it, and at worst, feel bad for them.
I know it's petty and a matter of semantics, but this is another case where speaking in absolutes bothers me. I agree with 99.9% of everything people have said about the awfulness and sexism involved in judging someone's geek credentials, but I can't believe that the "fake geek girl," cannot, will not, and has never existed. I mean, there's gotta be one.
There are fake people all walks of life. It is by no means our place to question people and I would never advocate some "let's find the one exception to the rule" witchhunt. The main reason is that these fake people aren't really hurting anyone. If they feel the need to actively pretend to like something, at most I would just ignore it, and at worst, feel bad for them.
Yep, even when I stated that I thought the most likely "fake geek girls" are paid booth babes, I noted that some of those paid booth babes may also happen to be legitimate geeks (especially since I personally know of at least one who is), and, similarly, it's possible that the cosplayer girl (or whoever) at J-Random-Con might be fake as well, though I felt that the odds are slim as the amount of time and money involved in doing that means that you at least have a strong fandom, if not outright geekishness, towards the material. BTW, I don't consider someone who is merely a fan, using Scott and Rym's definition of the term, to be a "fake geek." They may not be a geek per se, but they also legitimately like the source material in question. The only "fakes" are ones that don't like the material in any way but want to portray themselves as liking it for some personal benefit, whether money as a booth babe, getting into a group that they really want to be part of for some reason, or who knows what other motivations.
Also, yeah, you have no right to grill anyone on whether or not they are a real geek and there is no need for any sort of "fake geek witchhunt." Unless these "fake geeks" are in fact hurting someone by faking it, then their behavior is harmless. Of course, using manipulative techniques for personal gain at the expense of others is nothing new in human nature. History is full of con-artists, gold-diggers (both male and female) who marry wealthier people purely for financial gain, and so on. The only "fake geeks" we should be concerned with are those who fall into the classes of people I just mentioned and I honestly think those are an extreme minority if they even exist at all.
I agree with 99.9% of everything people have said about the awfulness and sexism involved in judging someone's geek credentials, but I can't believe that the "fake geek girl," cannot, will not, and has never existed. I mean, there's gotta be one.
Actually, I do know one. Basically, as soon as geeky things came into roughly mainstream fashion, she was suddenly super geeky, "Super into" The Big Bang Theory(She even once tried to claim that it was because everyone she knew was just like that, and the show was almost like looking into her life), and started buying and wearing a bunch of stuff with retro gaming logos and characters on them, but never actually knew who the vast majority of them were or what most of them were referencing, and spent a lot of time talking about how she was a super huge geek you guys like OMG.
Now, she never touches 99% of it, never talks about it, doesn't give a shit about any of it, and is pretty much just your average Hipster with all the usual tick-box obsessions - Retro, print tights(especially Black Milk, which are the hottest of the hot right now, apparently, which is nice, since the Black milk crew are apparently really nice, laid back people and they deserve the business), moustaches and beards, craft beer and obscure microbrews and music that "You just haven't heard of yet."
These are not even the first two things she's been like this about. I can think of at least 4 other phases she's gone through where one interest or similar became fashionable, and suddenly it's been her entire life for like years, and was dropped like a hot rock when the next thing came along. We all just kinda grin and bear it.
These are not even the first two things she's been like this about. I can think of at least 4 other phases she's gone through where one interest or similar became fashionable, and suddenly it's been her entire life for like years, and was dropped like a hot rock when the next thing came along. We all just kinda grin and bear it.
Okay, so yeah, sounds like she may be fake, but it certainly seems like she's of the harmless fake category. So yeah, no big deal, move along, nothing to see here...
I do remember watching an episode of some cop show a while back where the mystery of the week actually did involve a fake geek girl who pretended to be into classic toys, comic books, etc., in order to con a wealthy geek to fall in love with them so she can then steal those comic books, toys, and whatnot and sell them for personal profit -- a classic con game with a geeky spin. However the problem in this case wasn't that she was a fake geek. The problem was that she was a con artist who happened to fake being a geek as part of her con games. Still, this was purely a work of fiction and it's highly unlikely to exist in real life.
Okay, so yeah, sounds like she may be fake, but it certainly seems like she's of the harmless fake category. So yeah, no big deal, move along, nothing to see here...
Well, yeah, most of them are. It's not like there are some fake geek vampires trying to ingratiate themselves to suck out all of our geeky juices(and not in a good way). Really, most fake geeks are just people who pick it up because it's fashionable, and drop it just as quick when it's not the new hot thing. Followers of fashion trends, foolish maybe, but hardly malicious. I don't think the booth babe style ones are really that harmful, either, they're either doing a job like anyone else(and simply haven't thought about if it's a good or bad thing to do, because it's just a job to them), or they're exploiting a business opportunity, which I can't begrudge them for, as that's pretty much what business is about - finding a niche you can make money from.
Well, yeah, most of them are. It's not like there are some fake geek vampires trying to ingratiate themselves to suck out all of our geeky juices(and not in a good way). Really, most fake geeks are just people who pick it up because it's fashionable, and drop it just as quick when it's not the new hot thing. Followers of fashion trends, foolish maybe, but hardly malicious. I don't think the booth babe style ones are really that harmful, either, they're either doing a job like anyone else(and simply haven't thought about if it's a good or bad thing to do, because it's just a job to them), or they're exploiting a business opportunity, which I can't begrudge them for, as that's pretty much what business is about - finding a niche you can make money from.
I agree completely with you there. The only harmful "fakes" are those who do it purely out of a sense of malice, such as part of a con game or perhaps, among younger ones, as a form of bullying (i.e. fake being a geek to gain someone's trust, then do something horribly embarrassing to them as part of a cruel prank) or something along those lines. In those cases, the problem isn't with being fake, but the problem is with having malicious intent. The faking is only the method chosen to inflict their malicious intent on others.
The "fakes" are only an issue because they're destroying the insular, stunted social dynamics that manifest within large portions of particular fandoms. (Note: these dynamics need to be destroyed ;^) ).
If I had to label anything "fake geek," it's Big Bang Theory.
Now, she never touches 99% of it, never talks about it, doesn't give a shit about any of it, and is pretty much just your average Hipster with all the usual tick-box obsessions - Retro, print tights(especially Black Milk, which are the hottest of the hot right now, apparently, which is nice, since the Black milk crew are apparently really nice, laid back people and they deserve the business), moustaches and beards, craft beer and obscure microbrews and music that "You just haven't heard of yet."
The real question is has she taken her typewriter to the park?
Most of the people I have considered being "fake" or "not being themselves" are usually the people who were normal in high school then all of a sudden I see them sophomore year and they have dreads, ratty clothes, 26 bongs, and Bob Marley/tie dye decorations all over the walls.
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At all other industry cons, though, your point stands.
In other news, I probably qualify as number 2. I've met most of you guys at PAXes, but very rarely listen to shows.
I guess I'm sort of a number four? I listen to the show every once in a while, and have hung out with you guys on occasion, but I don't have my own FRC parking space.
Since we're all categorizing ourselves, I'm somewhere between a 3 and a 4. I listen religiously and read the forum frequently but almost never post.
But you guys were correct in that the dickishness of geeks towards fake geeks is that geeks believed that had to WORK for it to become a truly geeky person 10+ years ago. I remember reading a very sad article by Patton Oswalt where he was mad explaining how he felt special knowing about Boba Fett and fictional languages, when any person can walk into a movie theater, see a genre movie (like Avengers or Avatar) and be considered now a geeky person.
Aside from that, it's just sexist assholes as you two constantly confirmed.
Also, I love the idea of simply referring to bigotry is "ist". I'm going to start using it.
Also IMO say "personal brand" instead of "culture" for this stuff.
There are fake people all walks of life. It is by no means our place to question people and I would never advocate some "let's find the one exception to the rule" witchhunt. The main reason is that these fake people aren't really hurting anyone. If they feel the need to actively pretend to like something, at most I would just ignore it, and at worst, feel bad for them.
Also, yeah, you have no right to grill anyone on whether or not they are a real geek and there is no need for any sort of "fake geek witchhunt." Unless these "fake geeks" are in fact hurting someone by faking it, then their behavior is harmless. Of course, using manipulative techniques for personal gain at the expense of others is nothing new in human nature. History is full of con-artists, gold-diggers (both male and female) who marry wealthier people purely for financial gain, and so on. The only "fake geeks" we should be concerned with are those who fall into the classes of people I just mentioned and I honestly think those are an extreme minority if they even exist at all.
Now, she never touches 99% of it, never talks about it, doesn't give a shit about any of it, and is pretty much just your average Hipster with all the usual tick-box obsessions - Retro, print tights(especially Black Milk, which are the hottest of the hot right now, apparently, which is nice, since the Black milk crew are apparently really nice, laid back people and they deserve the business), moustaches and beards, craft beer and obscure microbrews and music that "You just haven't heard of yet."
These are not even the first two things she's been like this about. I can think of at least 4 other phases she's gone through where one interest or similar became fashionable, and suddenly it's been her entire life for like years, and was dropped like a hot rock when the next thing came along. We all just kinda grin and bear it.
I do remember watching an episode of some cop show a while back where the mystery of the week actually did involve a fake geek girl who pretended to be into classic toys, comic books, etc., in order to con a wealthy geek to fall in love with them so she can then steal those comic books, toys, and whatnot and sell them for personal profit -- a classic con game with a geeky spin. However the problem in this case wasn't that she was a fake geek. The problem was that she was a con artist who happened to fake being a geek as part of her con games. Still, this was purely a work of fiction and it's highly unlikely to exist in real life.
If I had to label anything "fake geek," it's Big Bang Theory.
Most of the people I have considered being "fake" or "not being themselves" are usually the people who were normal in high school then all of a sudden I see them sophomore year and they have dreads, ratty clothes, 26 bongs, and Bob Marley/tie dye decorations all over the walls.