There are many very legitimate reasons why a married person would want to discreetly look for sex or love outside their marriage. Even without "good reasons", what is so special about monogamy that makes people who deviate from it bad people?
No, there really aren't. If you can't tell your partner you're going to go have sex with some other people, then you're a shitbag in a shitty relationship.
It's not about monogamy. Have all the multi-directional sex you want. But lying to your partner(s) or hiding it from them?
There was a Reddit user who said he was from Saudi Arabia, and the Ashley Madison hack jeopardized his life because he had been flirting with men on there, a capital offense there. Dunno if it's true, but it certainly got me thinking. This may have greater consequences than the victim of the attack deserves.
This is a separate problem.
Open information is fine in a just nation (in theory). But many places in the world are far from just.
Those places either need to change, need to be changed, or need everyone who can to flee them.
There are many very legitimate reasons why a married person would want to discreetly look for sex or love outside their marriage. Even without "good reasons", what is so special about monogamy that makes people who deviate from it bad people?
No, there really aren't. If you can't tell your partner you're going to go have sex with some other people, then you're a shitbag in a shitty relationship.
It's not about monogamy. Have all the multi-directional sex you want. But lying to your partner(s) or hiding it from them?
Shitbag.
Though those people using Ashley Madison might be telling their partner they are using it but don't necessarily want other people to know about their situation. There is no "requirement" that the people using Ashley Madison are actually lying to their partners.
Though those people using Ashley Madison might be telling their partner they are using it but don't necessarily want other people to know about their situation. There is no "requirement" that the people using Ashley Madison are actually lying to their partners.
But, the site is aimed specifically at people who want to have affairs, so even if those rare unicorns exist, they are tapping a pool primarily of people who are trying actively to hide it from their partner.
Interesting: the far far majority of accounts are male.
Though those people using Ashley Madison might be telling their partner they are using it but don't necessarily want other people to know about their situation. There is no "requirement" that the people using Ashley Madison are actually lying to their partners.
But, the site is aimed specifically at people who want to have affairs, so even if those rare unicorns exist, they are tapping a pool primarily of people who are trying actively to hide it from their partner.
Interesting: the far far majority of accounts are male.
I don't know I always heard those ads on the radio when I was listening back in the day... So it wouldn't necessarily only be found by cheaters.
But, the site is aimed specifically at people who want to have affairs, so even if those rare unicorns exist, they are tapping a pool primarily of people who are trying actively to hide it from their partner.
Sort of. AM was one of the premier sites to hook up with people for no-string sex, and it certainly advertised it self as such. While the cheating thing was pushed, it was used primarily to bring in men who were interested in having sex with married ladies, regardless of the guy's own marital status.
So at least some of the guys were probably in relationships when they signed up, but there's no evidence that all or even most were.
We cannot say, without proof that any particular person on ashley madison is a bad person. We can say with some certainty that a percentage of them are scumbags, but we cannot say that any particular one of them is without more substantial evidence. They could've been drunk, clicked on an ad and signed up. They could actually be single and have a tryst kink. Their partner could be okay with it. But yes, most likely a not-insignificant portion of them are dishonest, and cheating on their spouses, and their spouses deserve to know, but those who aren't doing anything wrong don't deserve to have their privacy violated. And since we don't know who is who and would need to further violate privacy to find out, I can't morally support this occurring. But because the benefits of the outcome are yet uncertain, I can't damn it either.
Also, who the hell would use their real email and/or name on a dating site that is supposed to be secret? Especially the high-profile people found to be using it, I mean come on man, basic internet protocol. If you do shit that would destroy your career if it came out, you make sure none of it can ever be linked back to you, no matter what. Encrpyt, fake names, cycle burner phones, VPN, USB stick OS, always pay in cash, the whole nine yards.
Though those people using Ashley Madison might be telling their partner they are using it but don't necessarily want other people to know about their situation. There is no "requirement" that the people using Ashley Madison are actually lying to their partners.
But, the site is aimed specifically at people who want to have affairs, so even if those rare unicorns exist, they are tapping a pool primarily of people who are trying actively to hide it from their partner.
Interesting: the far far majority of accounts are male.
How many unicorns getting their lives ruined makes shaming "shitbags" worth it? The worst people on AM are guilty of no actual crimes, and the worst they have done is be bad/dishonest partners in relationships. I'm super surprised to see you arguing this hack is a good thing, and even more surprised to see you comparing cheaters to Klansmen. Other peoples relationships are none of our business.
In general, more truth is better. It's complicated primarily by regressive societies that punish unfairly for things that shouldn't be punishable. But all other things being equal, more truth is better than less.
Let's use Klansmen as an example first.
Say all KKK chapters were hacked, and a verified list of their membership was published. Would you look at it? Would you see if someone you were going to hire or date was on it? Would you vote for a politician who was on it? What if the head of a city's police department was a bona fide member? Does the release of that specific information, in sum, make the world a better, or worse, place?
I'm super surprised to see you arguing this hack is a good thing
The hack happened, and I had no control over it. I wouldn't advocate that the hack be done. It's like a tornado: it just happened. Due to the way security is done for computers in companies, it's impossible to prevent (currently).
So since is already did happen, I'd might as well accept and even enjoy the results. It can't be undone. The data are now there. If data are available, regardless of how they became available, I will use them, with appropriate grains of salt, in my decision making.
If a friend of mine had a bona fide account on that site, I'd definitely think deeply less of them. I would definitely judge them, and possibly confront them to see what their rationale was.
I think after-the-fact-ism is fair enough, but this isn't like a tornado: one or more actual human beings with full human agency did this, and they deserve punishment. As does AM for apparently lying about its full delete feature. I think AM are the real shitbags here, but there almost certainly are swaths of people who have done nothing wrong here that are going to be hurt badly by this.
Everyone on a KKK member roster is a racist, but many people in the AM database could be good people. To give myself as an example: I'm in a poly relationship, and I'm lucky enough to be in a job & place that I don't need to worry about being out. Plenty of people do do need to worry about being out, and they can't use sites like OKCupid, and AM sold itself as a secure option. So when you cheer the good that can come out of this hack, you aren't just cheering shitbags getting punished for being lying scum, you are cheering people like me being punished for loving people in a way society doesn't approve of.
Everyone on a KKK member roster is a racist, but many people in the AM database could be good people.
So there are cases where the same sort of breach would be a net benefit to society, and it depends entirely on the relative context of the data and the people involved?
Sure, the hackers committed a crime, and should be punished. But the crime is done, and the data are out there. Sure, there are edge cases of people who might have used that incredibly dodgy obviously-not-secure probably-a-scam specifically-advertising-affairs site for reasons other than cheating. A percentage of those people might be in a position to be harmed due to the society they specifically inhabit.
Those people don't deserve harm. But, at the same time, they're like the people who send all their money to Nigeria. They misplaced their trust in AM, much like the average AM user's spouse misplaced their trust in them.
I am perfectly capable of cheering for the shitbags who get outed in their shitbaggery from this, and simultaneously being sympathetic for the very few people who will come to unfair harm.
I hate this common nerd-snobbery that people who get fucked from not understanding security/economics deserve it. It's so counterproductive and heartless. Saying that someone doesn't deserve harm, and then immediately following up with "But, at the same time..." is just plain fucked. We don't tolerate that kind of rhetoric when shitstain misogynists use it to smear rape victims, and we shouldn't be using it ourselves.
It's a matter of trust. Laypeople are far too trusting of companies, web sites, and other people online. They need to learn to never trust any of those things.
This is also an active, not a passive, event. A rape victim is attacked: full stop. There is literally nothing a person can do that invites rape.
But someone not suffering from dementia or other mental illness who mails their life savings to someone they received an email from? They probably aren't capable of living unassisted in the modern world.
It's a matter of trust. Laypeople are far too trusting of companies, web sites, and other people online. They need to learn to never trust any of those things.
We are in violent agreement, but I would prefer they could learn without getting hurt. Even more importantly, it's less the fault of laypeople than the faults of tech companies lying about how secure they are.
This is also an active, not a passive, event. A rape victim is attacked: full stop. There is literally nothing a person can do that invites rape.
Also in violent agreement! Nothing invites rape, and it is men's responsibility not to rape, rather than women's responsibility to protect themselves.
But someone not suffering from dementia or other mental illness who mails their life savings to someone they received an email from? They probably aren't capable of living unassisted in the modern world.
Probably true. But does that make them less human? Does it make things that happen to them OK, because they "deserved it"? Of course not. Laughing at people who get scammed by what looks to us as obviously shady is not cool. It's people with power mocking the weak when they get victimized. I don't want to be the kind of person that does that, and I would hope most people wouldn't either.
I'm curious to how many famous people or politicians were found and verified on the hack. Many people likely used dummy accounts, but there will be a few who used their real name/numbers/addresses to sign up. I only feel justified karma on people such as Josh Duggar who promote "family values" when they are being hypocritical as fuck.
Rym and Victor are right. Cheating may not look like a big deal in our age where more polygamous relationships go on, but it's still a violation of trust. Think about couples who get mad and/or worried when they don't know where their partner goes or who they talk to. Now think about the escalation when your partner (is likely) going behind your back to have sex, a very visceral/personal activity with another person. Yeah, there may be a few couples open to having hook-ups like that, but think of people you know and have experienced in relationships. And Ashley Madison is clearly catering to people who want to have affairs or are unhappy and need a new type of partner to have sex with.
I kinda feel like this is extra shitty too because its not like it "just happened" one night. Besides, say, a single person looking to bang a married person, these people are all explicitly looking to cheat in general. They didn't just meet someone they really connected with while they happened to be in a relationship. Kinda like there's a difference between deciding to murder someone and accidentally hitting someone with your car. Both are bad, but having that intent makes it worse.
Also, who the hell would use their real email and/or name on a dating site that is supposed to be secret? Especially the high-profile people found to be using it, I mean come on man, basic internet protocol. If you do shit that would destroy your career if it came out, you make sure none of it can ever be linked back to you, no matter what. Encrpyt, fake names, cycle burner phones, VPN, USB stick OS, always pay in cash, the whole nine yards.
Because I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that almost all of them are fake. I said it before, I'll say it again - Ashley Madison had ZERO verification process. If I felt like it, I could have registered Barak.obama@whitehouse.gov for an AM account, and the white house wouldn't have known until this leak.
I think we are somewhat talking past each other. I'm not saying the canonical cheating spouse is not doing wrong, or even is a good person. Fuck that guy. What I'm saying is despite that, he doesn't deserve to be outed like this, and the few people who use the site with their partner's blessings certainly don't.
Also, who the hell would use their real email and/or name on a dating site that is supposed to be secret? Especially the high-profile people found to be using it, I mean come on man, basic internet protocol. If you do shit that would destroy your career if it came out, you make sure none of it can ever be linked back to you, no matter what. Encrpyt, fake names, cycle burner phones, VPN, USB stick OS, always pay in cash, the whole nine yards.
Because I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that almost all of them are fake. I said it before, I'll say it again - Ashley Madison had ZERO verification process. If I felt like it, I could have registered Barak.obama@whitehouse.gov for an AM account, and the white house wouldn't have known until this leak.
I'm kind of surprised no one did......
EDIT: Just checked, someone did sign up that email address.
Comments
I spent 45 fucking minutes flipping channels and having nostalgia to a level that was physically painful.
Fuck.
It's not about monogamy. Have all the multi-directional sex you want. But lying to your partner(s) or hiding it from them?
Shitbag.
Open information is fine in a just nation (in theory). But many places in the world are far from just.
Those places either need to change, need to be changed, or need everyone who can to flee them.
Interesting: the far far majority of accounts are male.
So at least some of the guys were probably in relationships when they signed up, but there's no evidence that all or even most were.
Also, who the hell would use their real email and/or name on a dating site that is supposed to be secret? Especially the high-profile people found to be using it, I mean come on man, basic internet protocol. If you do shit that would destroy your career if it came out, you make sure none of it can ever be linked back to you, no matter what. Encrpyt, fake names, cycle burner phones, VPN, USB stick OS, always pay in cash, the whole nine yards.
Let's use Klansmen as an example first.
Say all KKK chapters were hacked, and a verified list of their membership was published. Would you look at it? Would you see if someone you were going to hire or date was on it? Would you vote for a politician who was on it? What if the head of a city's police department was a bona fide member? Does the release of that specific information, in sum, make the world a better, or worse, place? The hack happened, and I had no control over it. I wouldn't advocate that the hack be done. It's like a tornado: it just happened. Due to the way security is done for computers in companies, it's impossible to prevent (currently).
So since is already did happen, I'd might as well accept and even enjoy the results. It can't be undone. The data are now there. If data are available, regardless of how they became available, I will use them, with appropriate grains of salt, in my decision making.
If a friend of mine had a bona fide account on that site, I'd definitely think deeply less of them. I would definitely judge them, and possibly confront them to see what their rationale was.
Everyone on a KKK member roster is a racist, but many people in the AM database could be good people. To give myself as an example: I'm in a poly relationship, and I'm lucky enough to be in a job & place that I don't need to worry about being out. Plenty of people do do need to worry about being out, and they can't use sites like OKCupid, and AM sold itself as a secure option. So when you cheer the good that can come out of this hack, you aren't just cheering shitbags getting punished for being lying scum, you are cheering people like me being punished for loving people in a way society doesn't approve of.
Sure, the hackers committed a crime, and should be punished. But the crime is done, and the data are out there. Sure, there are edge cases of people who might have used that incredibly dodgy obviously-not-secure probably-a-scam specifically-advertising-affairs site for reasons other than cheating. A percentage of those people might be in a position to be harmed due to the society they specifically inhabit.
Those people don't deserve harm. But, at the same time, they're like the people who send all their money to Nigeria. They misplaced their trust in AM, much like the average AM user's spouse misplaced their trust in them.
I am perfectly capable of cheering for the shitbags who get outed in their shitbaggery from this, and simultaneously being sympathetic for the very few people who will come to unfair harm.
This is also an active, not a passive, event. A rape victim is attacked: full stop. There is literally nothing a person can do that invites rape.
But someone not suffering from dementia or other mental illness who mails their life savings to someone they received an email from? They probably aren't capable of living unassisted in the modern world.
Rym and Victor are right. Cheating may not look like a big deal in our age where more polygamous relationships go on, but it's still a violation of trust. Think about couples who get mad and/or worried when they don't know where their partner goes or who they talk to. Now think about the escalation when your partner (is likely) going behind your back to have sex, a very visceral/personal activity with another person. Yeah, there may be a few couples open to having hook-ups like that, but think of people you know and have experienced in relationships. And Ashley Madison is clearly catering to people who want to have affairs or are unhappy and need a new type of partner to have sex with.
EDIT: Just checked, someone did sign up that email address.
And the making of.