I'm with Rym in how my relationships progress. Admitted we may have progressed quickly from friends to kissing at the time, but we're super close now so everything is fine. Maybe that's why this is long term rather than a couple month thing. I respect Luke's position, but not for me.
It's not a position, it's an option. I'm in a very happy relationship right now, going on 3 years, and we are best of friends. However, the first tie we had sex we weren't best of friends, or even close friends. We saw that we probably would become close friends, but that didn't get in the way of us being sexually attracted to each other and acting upon it.
On a different point, I don't want to be an apologist for misogynistic dickheads, but someone who is interested in someone else for sexy fun times above friendship is not inherently a bad person. It's not an excuse to not be friendly, but lasting friendships is not always what two people want from each other in every situation.
I agree with Luke. The only issue is when you're upset at people for not wanting to have sexy fun times with you, blaming the world for not liking you because you're "too nice" or any other such nonsense. It's just a new form of misogyny and entitlement that has been invented by people who feel disenfranchised. It sucks that certain groups of people are generally not looked upon for sexy times as often as others, but that's reality. People do have their right to be sexually interested in some people and not others.
Back to being single means that I'm back to telling bad date stories:
Tonight was the first time I ever walked out of a date. Tonight was also the first time I had to ask someone not to touch (pet) me.
We talked online. She seemed OK. A little quirky and decently smart. She had a self painting as her pic. I get it. It's the internet. You don't need everyone in your business. So we agree to meet for a drink. Looks noting like the painting. Loud nervous laughter the whole time. Admits that she left a guy because she started to love him, and she "doesn't believe in love only lust." Admits to being passive aggressive to get what she wants. Her starting to try to rub my arm for the 2nd time was it. DONE!
Why is the term "friend zone" so popular when the term "unrequited love" already exists and is more accurate?
I suspect it's because it shifts the locus of responsibility. "Unrequited love" focuses on the person who has the crush. The feelings being discussed are the crushing person's, thus the responsibility in on them to get over their crush and move on. "Friend zone", on the other hand, focuses on the crush object's choices. The phrase erases the agency of the crushing person. All blame for their pain is put on the crush object. "Unrequited love" is something that can happen to both sexes, but "friend zone" is a sexist concept that implies that women are solely responsible for men's happiness, and not men themselves.
You're the responsible for your own emotions. You don't get to say how someone else should feels. You maybe able to influence, but you can't dictate. Could you really describe yourself as having an "unrequited love" and take yourself seriously? It's a really strong term for having a crush on someone. This isn't Shakespeare. "Friendzone", in theory, is a term that I can actually use in real life, except for its general association with douchebags. Also, she pulled the sexism part out of her ass, because just like both men and women can use the term "unrequited love", they both can (although I feel women do a lot less) use the term "friendzone". Sure it's sexist if people use it in a sexist way, but that's not inherent. Dromaro used it earlier in the thread and clearly wasn't being sexist.
On a different point, I don't want to be an apologist for misogynistic dickheads, but someone who is interested in someone else for sexy fun times above friendship is not inherently a bad person. It's not an excuse to not be friendly, but lasting friendships is not always what two people want from each other in every situation.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that someone who's only interest is sex is bad. The problem is not this interaction:
"Greetings. Wish to rub genitals together for pleasure?" "No thanks." "Ok. Good day, sir/ma'am/however you identify."
The problem is this interaction:
*Thinking: Man, she's really cute. I bet if I'm really nice to her for a while, she'll date me or have sex with me.* *Several weeks/months of fake kindness to get in her pants* "Ok, I've been nice to you for the requisite amount of time. Engage sexytimes now!" "What? No. Jesus. I don't like you that way." "Friendzoned again by another hypergamous whore."
Good call. You clearly could have had some sexy time if you wanted but she sounds like the type that never goes away.
Yes. She was like Herpes.
I need to make a video of a guy doing the typical shit "nice guys" to another guy to explain this crap. Steal this idea. It's a worth a billion internet points. I just want to be involved with the script.
Back to being single means that I'm back to telling bad date stories:
Tonight was the first time I ever walked out of a date. Tonight was also the first time I had to ask someone not to touch (pet) me.
We talked online. She seemed OK. A little quirky and decently smart. She had a self painting as her pic. I get it. It's the internet. You don't need everyone in your business. So we agree to meet for a drink. Looks noting like the painting. Loud nervous laughter the whole time. Admits that she left a guy because she started to love him, and she "doesn't believe in love only lust." Admits to being passive aggressive to get what she wants. Her starting to try to rub my arm for the 2nd time was it. DONE!
Oh dude that is both hilarious and kind of disturbing.
Stories like Wyatt's are why being single is at least adventuresome. and awesome at times even when it's crazy and gross.
All my friends who are around my age who are married or engaged for any period of time? Very often they few awesome war stories: all their happenings were early on, and they settled (so far) relatively early... so they got their average of 2-3 flings they can spin and re-spin a few times before you realize "holy crap that person only dated like 3 people ever so all these different crazy events were only for like those three dudes."
And nothing wrong with that, if you are happy where you are and all. It just is that sort of epiphany moment that doesn't matter really at all, but still happens, when you realize something by connecting the dots vs just knowing data and not absorbing it. You really realize it. And it can alter the paradigm. Trivial, yes, but something to think about here I suppose.
it means that for the extremely trivial purpose of having awesome dating tales from the foxholes... for those brave or foolish souls who venture quickly into the arms of a long-term relationship there is only so much meat there... only so much to reflect on.
I think back to the relationships I had and, being single now, the memories seem fair game to analyze and pick over. They're out on the mental table, to peruse for good or bad; where being in a relationship you tend to keep those things in the mental attic/basement/storage unit only to be dug up when there's a really specific need; situations like 'why is this person calling me for child support?' or "Who's lace underwear is this under the bed from, like, 3-5 years ago which was when I probably last cleaned under the bed?" or when you're drunk around a campfire with a bunch of friends and need to one-up someone, without it being awkward next time they see your current SO.
Because no-one wants to think about the story, about the time, you and the person you're sitting with did that thing with the can opener, while enjoying a nice dinner. Maybe some people don't think about it, maybe to some people it's totally not even a thing. But then there's that type of person who just might think about it: because of some turn of phrase you used, or some look you make, and it takes them to that night around the campfire where you were mentioning how they were doing this and it was twisting, and that was all over the floor, and those were just so there...
To be frank I've almost assuredly been the one who told a similar tale to people, and Bill Nye only knows what they had to endure while enjoying dinner later on. And I've heard stories like that and then been the guy who spent half a dinner being like, 'holy crap you guys did this crazy thing that, I totally think is your right to do and that is cool, but I just can't un-think about it now, and I want to think about this steak and your work story and not you two having a fling in an Ohio Turnpike rest stop.'
So hence using the exes and the old flings and the stories about the fellas that no-one is likely to know. Which again is perhaps trivial purpose to gain the XP, but it's not a bad benefit.
All that to say, when dating it's no sin to date people who you are friends with, those you've just met in a cafe and really have a thing for, those who you met on 4chan one late night, or those who probably are a gamble at best but, hey, who knows.
The take from this I suppose is that dating, even when it goes bad, is worthwhile. At the very least you learn and have a silly or amusing/terrifying story to share with a gluttoned world starved for content.
And sure, yes there's some terrible worst-case scenarios from dating frequently/wantonly, or at all. But there's also tremendously bad worst-case scenarios with driving to work or doing just about any activity. I am, in certain and many situations, awkward. I'm often shy, and communicating with those I crush on is hella hard. I have done things some might call sketch at times, to curry favor with those I purport to want to love, and not always with success. I've also been bitten by pulling/leaving out the mental (or sometimes physical) memories of previous things while in a current thing. Yet it seems I've always learned from it at the least, and my behaviors and understanding and empathy and non-sketch-factors, my relationships, improved over time.
But, I've only ever dated like 4 people ever, so all these different crazy events I'm trying to extrapolate into some form of experience were for, like, four girls.
But if we ever had a nice campfire and the discussion went the right way... I still probably could sling some stories, without it being too awkward.
Most of you on here are fairly young. There is a huge difference in dating quality when you are in your twenties compared to when you are in your fourties or older.
When you are young you don't know why or even care why the other person is still single. When you are older that reason becomes more important. Why is this person in their fourties and never married? If they are divorced what happened? Sometimes their reasons are valid and make complete sense other times, not so much.
As for war stories... When I was stationed in Germany (maybe age 21) I woke up in an insane asylum. Not as a patient but the woman I hooked up with worked there and lived in the campus housing. Housing which did include padded walls... Everywhere. Like most G.I.'s I met her at a bar (Green Goose in Nuremberg). How did I end up with her? I wanted to sit and the booth already had three people. The guy of the group (another American soldier) told me I could sit there but only if I hooked up with his extra girl. It ended up being a one night stand with terrible sex (whiskey dick) but it also makes for a great story.
Now that I am much older shit like that no longer happens, for the most part. In my post divorce dating I have only been scammed by one person and when I do date I look for women who live a 30 minute drive away or further so that when it ends they hopefully will not be bothered to drive an hour roundtrip to harass me.
One final bit. When I was in Germany I dated a girl for a little over a year and we had a horrible breakup. This was the one and only time I ended up doing stalker type things post breakup. About a year ago she found me on Facebook and apologized for all the terrible shit she put me through. We cool now.
A girl I met through another friend asked me out ~2 months before I left the states for Japan (~5 months ago). She was well aware that I was leaving soon, and even though we were both a bit worried about the distance, we decided to give it a shot. And so far, all is going well. We chat regularly, talk on Skype ~once a week, and the time difference is actually pretty matches up surprisingly well (we have work/school while the other is asleep).
This being the first time a girl had asked me out, not vice versa, I was well chuffed. I certainly wasn't expecting it again so soon. This being summer, Japan is all kinds of fireworks. There's even a website with every firework display in the country! Two weeks ago, I ran into a group of foreigners who were new to the city and looking quite lost. They turned out to be going to the same festival I was, so I played tour guide. While chatting with them over the course of the night, I find I have a lot of common ground with one of the girls in the group: walking the green places, fireworks, tacos, Running Man, etc. We exchanged details and made plans to go hiking and hang out. Then tonight, she asks me if I wanna go out with her, I tell her I have a girlfriend back home, she goes "Aww. Good on you, though. Distance can make people forget that.", and then we keep chatting.
Is this what being a well-adjusted adult is like? Being upfront with people, and then they respect that, even when it's not what they want to hear? Because I could definitely get used to that.
Pretty much, when I'm talking to someone who I think is possibly flirting with me, I tend to drop something in about my wife in a off hand casual way, just to signal that I'm unavailable. Mainly a defense mechanism, to ensure I don't end up in a awkward situation, especially because I tend to gravitate towards new people who probably don't know me compared to the people I do know.
I'm sorta at the point where I've been considering whether or not I want to try dating other people. On one hand I love my girlfriend but on the other I'm not sure if I could commit to something like getting married. We've been together almost 5 years and really this is my only long term relationship. Before this was anywhere between two weeks and four months. So having been with someone that long I have a stronger grasp on what I think I would like out of a relationship, but at the same time I realize that things can change over time with a relationship. So even in short term if I know something I like it may or may not stay that way.
I've been considering bringing up the idea of going on dates with other people sorta as a social experiment for lack of a better term. Perhaps to understand my current relationship better. I wouldn't be looking for sex or anything, but moreso just to see how it goes. I'm pretty sure bringing this up will not go well with my girlfriend so currently this is all in my head. The other problem is I don't think people that I would potentially go out with would be very receptive to the idea. So I'm sorta at an impasse.
Are you and your current girlfriend growing as a couple? As individuals? What are your respective goals for your lives? How well do they mesh?
These are the questions to ask when considering a future with someone. Fuck love. Love is great, but it does NOT make someone a suitable long-term partner. I mean, it's generally a good thing to have, but it can't be the only thing the relationship has going for it.
Something that's been weighing on my mind lately is how relationships show affection to each other in public. In a group of my friends, two of the people got together, but the way the show affection for one another is by insulting one another and busting their chops. Not as flirting or teasing, but actually calling out their manhood/womanhood in question and revealing things in their sex life.
It's naive to ask, but I don't know why more people find this thought process confusing. I sometimes worry with that in my girlfriend because she loves stories of relationships filled with snappy patois and constant back-and-forth for dominance, but in real life she's very sweet and looks always enjoys my endearing forms of flattery and kindness. Somehow I feel like it's been put into public consciousness that a genuine, loving, sweet relationship is automatically boring and uninteresting because it lacks conflict. I think I just prefer the sincerity that comes from being caring and sweet.
The woman in the previous relationship in question directly told me. "I insult people to show how I care for them." It's never really been quite a mentality I can understand because it tends to lead to even more problems by saying one thing and meaning another.
I'm not sure how you all see this, but where do you think that line is between teasing/flirting to negging or flat out insulting to show affection? I get it with friends to an extent, but when it comes to significant others is when you shouldn't go to far.
To comment on something Nuke said a while ago, One of my rules for leadership is never to call someone out publicly for a problem until you've talked to them in private about it. The same goes for relationships with an exception. Generally people are not going to like being called out in a group of peers about issues or such in their relationship UNLESS it has been established in the beginning that it is acceptable behavior.
So if the person is actually a willing target of the insulting and nagging *shudder* that's their problem. Though I can understand how it might be strange and uncomfortable to witness that.
One of my rules for leadership is never to call someone out publicly for a problem until you've talked to them in private about it.
There is a specific exception to that very good rule: when destroying another person.
If you need to destroy another person for the benefit of the rest of a team, having it come as a surprise to them ensures that they will either be stunned into silence or goaded into an overreaction: both are fatal to their cause.
Granted, this only works if you intend to burn your bridge to this person AND if you expect this person to resign or be removed.
Comments
On a different point, I don't want to be an apologist for misogynistic dickheads, but someone who is interested in someone else for sexy fun times above friendship is not inherently a bad person. It's not an excuse to not be friendly, but lasting friendships is not always what two people want from each other in every situation.
Tonight was the first time I ever walked out of a date. Tonight was also the first time I had to ask someone not to touch (pet) me.
We talked online. She seemed OK. A little quirky and decently smart. She had a self painting as her pic. I get it. It's the internet. You don't need everyone in your business. So we agree to meet for a drink. Looks noting like the painting. Loud nervous laughter the whole time. Admits that she left a guy because she started to love him, and she "doesn't believe in love only lust." Admits to being passive aggressive to get what she wants. Her starting to try to rub my arm for the 2nd time was it. DONE!
You're the responsible for your own emotions. You don't get to say how someone else should feels.
You maybe able to influence, but you can't dictate.
Could you really describe yourself as having an "unrequited love" and take yourself seriously? It's a really strong term for having a crush on someone. This isn't Shakespeare. "Friendzone", in theory, is a term that I can actually use in real life, except for its general association with douchebags. Also, she pulled the sexism part out of her ass, because just like both men and women can use the term "unrequited love", they both can (although I feel women do a lot less) use the term "friendzone". Sure it's sexist if people use it in a sexist way, but that's not inherent. Dromaro used it earlier in the thread and clearly wasn't being sexist.
"Greetings. Wish to rub genitals together for pleasure?"
"No thanks."
"Ok. Good day, sir/ma'am/however you identify."
The problem is this interaction:
*Thinking: Man, she's really cute. I bet if I'm really nice to her for a while, she'll date me or have sex with me.*
*Several weeks/months of fake kindness to get in her pants*
"Ok, I've been nice to you for the requisite amount of time. Engage sexytimes now!"
"What? No. Jesus. I don't like you that way."
"Friendzoned again by another hypergamous whore."
I need to make a video of a guy doing the typical shit "nice guys" to another guy to explain this crap. Steal this idea. It's a worth a billion internet points. I just want to be involved with the script.
But good move on getting out of there.
But I do get a bit of a recharge telling other people about it.
All my friends who are around my age who are married or engaged for any period of time? Very often they few awesome war stories: all their happenings were early on, and they settled (so far) relatively early... so they got their average of 2-3 flings they can spin and re-spin a few times before you realize "holy crap that person only dated like 3 people ever so all these different crazy events were only for like those three dudes."
And nothing wrong with that, if you are happy where you are and all. It just is that sort of epiphany moment that doesn't matter really at all, but still happens, when you realize something by connecting the dots vs just knowing data and not absorbing it. You really realize it. And it can alter the paradigm. Trivial, yes, but something to think about here I suppose.
it means that for the extremely trivial purpose of having awesome dating tales from the foxholes... for those brave or foolish souls who venture quickly into the arms of a long-term relationship there is only so much meat there... only so much to reflect on.
I think back to the relationships I had and, being single now, the memories seem fair game to analyze and pick over. They're out on the mental table, to peruse for good or bad; where being in a relationship you tend to keep those things in the mental attic/basement/storage unit only to be dug up when there's a really specific need; situations like 'why is this person calling me for child support?' or "Who's lace underwear is this under the bed from, like, 3-5 years ago which was when I probably last cleaned under the bed?" or when you're drunk around a campfire with a bunch of friends and need to one-up someone, without it being awkward next time they see your current SO.
Because no-one wants to think about the story, about the time, you and the person you're sitting with did that thing with the can opener, while enjoying a nice dinner. Maybe some people don't think about it, maybe to some people it's totally not even a thing. But then there's that type of person who just might think about it: because of some turn of phrase you used, or some look you make, and it takes them to that night around the campfire where you were mentioning how they were doing this and it was twisting, and that was all over the floor, and those were just so there...
To be frank I've almost assuredly been the one who told a similar tale to people, and Bill Nye only knows what they had to endure while enjoying dinner later on. And I've heard stories like that and then been the guy who spent half a dinner being like, 'holy crap you guys did this crazy thing that, I totally think is your right to do and that is cool, but I just can't un-think about it now, and I want to think about this steak and your work story and not you two having a fling in an Ohio Turnpike rest stop.'
So hence using the exes and the old flings and the stories about the fellas that no-one is likely to know. Which again is perhaps trivial purpose to gain the XP, but it's not a bad benefit.
All that to say, when dating it's no sin to date people who you are friends with, those you've just met in a cafe and really have a thing for, those who you met on 4chan one late night, or those who probably are a gamble at best but, hey, who knows.
The take from this I suppose is that dating, even when it goes bad, is worthwhile. At the very least you learn and have a silly or amusing/terrifying story to share with a gluttoned world starved for content.
And sure, yes there's some terrible worst-case scenarios from dating frequently/wantonly, or at all. But there's also tremendously bad worst-case scenarios with driving to work or doing just about any activity. I am, in certain and many situations, awkward. I'm often shy, and communicating with those I crush on is hella hard. I have done things some might call sketch at times, to curry favor with those I purport to want to love, and not always with success. I've also been bitten by pulling/leaving out the mental (or sometimes physical) memories of previous things while in a current thing. Yet it seems I've always learned from it at the least, and my behaviors and understanding and empathy and non-sketch-factors, my relationships, improved over time.
But, I've only ever dated like 4 people ever, so all these different crazy events I'm trying to extrapolate into some form of experience were for, like, four girls.
But if we ever had a nice campfire and the discussion went the right way... I still probably could sling some stories, without it being too awkward.
When you are young you don't know why or even care why the other person is still single. When you are older that reason becomes more important. Why is this person in their fourties and never married? If they are divorced what happened? Sometimes their reasons are valid and make complete sense other times, not so much.
As for war stories... When I was stationed in Germany (maybe age 21) I woke up in an insane asylum. Not as a patient but the woman I hooked up with worked there and lived in the campus housing. Housing which did include padded walls... Everywhere. Like most G.I.'s I met her at a bar (Green Goose in Nuremberg). How did I end up with her? I wanted to sit and the booth already had three people. The guy of the group (another American soldier) told me I could sit there but only if I hooked up with his extra girl. It ended up being a one night stand with terrible sex (whiskey dick) but it also makes for a great story.
Now that I am much older shit like that no longer happens, for the most part. In my post divorce dating I have only been scammed by one person and when I do date I look for women who live a 30 minute drive away or further so that when it ends they hopefully will not be bothered to drive an hour roundtrip to harass me.
One final bit. When I was in Germany I dated a girl for a little over a year and we had a horrible breakup. This was the one and only time I ended up doing stalker type things post breakup. About a year ago she found me on Facebook and apologized for all the terrible shit she put me through. We cool now.
The story is a good lesson for the younger folks in self-assertion and making good choices. Thinking with the right head and all that.
This being the first time a girl had asked me out, not vice versa, I was well chuffed. I certainly wasn't expecting it again so soon. This being summer, Japan is all kinds of fireworks. There's even a website with every firework display in the country! Two weeks ago, I ran into a group of foreigners who were new to the city and looking quite lost. They turned out to be going to the same festival I was, so I played tour guide. While chatting with them over the course of the night, I find I have a lot of common ground with one of the girls in the group: walking the green places, fireworks, tacos, Running Man, etc. We exchanged details and made plans to go hiking and hang out. Then tonight, she asks me if I wanna go out with her, I tell her I have a girlfriend back home, she goes "Aww. Good on you, though. Distance can make people forget that.", and then we keep chatting.
Is this what being a well-adjusted adult is like? Being upfront with people, and then they respect that, even when it's not what they want to hear? Because I could definitely get used to that.
I've been considering bringing up the idea of going on dates with other people sorta as a social experiment for lack of a better term. Perhaps to understand my current relationship better. I wouldn't be looking for sex or anything, but moreso just to see how it goes. I'm pretty sure bringing this up will not go well with my girlfriend so currently this is all in my head. The other problem is I don't think people that I would potentially go out with would be very receptive to the idea. So I'm sorta at an impasse.
These are the questions to ask when considering a future with someone. Fuck love. Love is great, but it does NOT make someone a suitable long-term partner. I mean, it's generally a good thing to have, but it can't be the only thing the relationship has going for it.
（⌒▽⌒ゞ
Something that's been weighing on my mind lately is how relationships show affection to each other in public. In a group of my friends, two of the people got together, but the way the show affection for one another is by insulting one another and busting their chops. Not as flirting or teasing, but actually calling out their manhood/womanhood in question and revealing things in their sex life.
It's naive to ask, but I don't know why more people find this thought process confusing. I sometimes worry with that in my girlfriend because she loves stories of relationships filled with snappy patois and constant back-and-forth for dominance, but in real life she's very sweet and looks always enjoys my endearing forms of flattery and kindness. Somehow I feel like it's been put into public consciousness that a genuine, loving, sweet relationship is automatically boring and uninteresting because it lacks conflict. I think I just prefer the sincerity that comes from being caring and sweet.
The woman in the previous relationship in question directly told me. "I insult people to show how I care for them." It's never really been quite a mentality I can understand because it tends to lead to even more problems by saying one thing and meaning another.
I'm not sure how you all see this, but where do you think that line is between teasing/flirting to negging or flat out insulting to show affection? I get it with friends to an extent, but when it comes to significant others is when you shouldn't go to far.
We are going to walk along the city centre canal and find somewhere to eat when we fancy it along the route.
So if the person is actually a willing target of the insulting and nagging *shudder* that's their problem. Though I can understand how it might be strange and uncomfortable to witness that.
If you need to destroy another person for the benefit of the rest of a team, having it come as a surprise to them ensures that they will either be stunned into silence or goaded into an overreaction: both are fatal to their cause.
Granted, this only works if you intend to burn your bridge to this person AND if you expect this person to resign or be removed.