Also you can pick a mate on what life goals you have.... as in whether you want kids or not (or how many), religious background, pets, where you want to live, all sorts of other factors (beyond hobbies and interests). I mean people connect on all sorts of things and make the decision who to marry for all sorts of reasons.
For example a guy at work just married and is having is first kid in his late 40's because he had a lot of trouble in the Philly suburbs finding the correct type of jewish girl that would marry him and follow his traditions... They might not have anything in common other then culture.. It just matters what is important to you.
I'm all for wait till you find the right person to get married, but having kids later in life raises biological concerns.
@WindUpBird: Dooooo iiitttttt! Give her a chance. You'll never know unless you try. She maybe the right kind of crazy.
That's generally all on the female, actually there was a study saying that human evolution may have slowed down because there wasn't as many older men having kids (which I assume with younger women).
I also like to make sure that I'm capable of wrestling her to the ground, just in case she tries anything funny. You can never be too careful.
but having kids later in life raises biological concerns.
Yes, ova tend to "go bad" over time. Sperm are so short-lived that they're not around long enough to accumulate lots of damage to the DNA. That's part of the reason why a woman who has a child when she's in her 40's has a much greater risk of having a child with Down's or some other disorder; the DNA is so damaged that errors are quite common.
I think I remember something about women being born with all the ova they will ever have. Then after puberty hits, every month one or two will mature and be released for potential fertilization. Thus the ova have time to degrade.
As opposed to men, who have little sperm factories that are routinely making new gametes.
I'm reminded of a couple I know from the NYC anime meetup. We all go hang out at a diner once a month and talk about anime. There's a lot of us and the group attracts both the socially functional and the socially dysfunctional ends of the geeky spectrum.
One guy, Brian, is very geeky. He's quite involved with the group, he's seen a loooot of anime, and he can go on about it forever. I wouldn't call him socially dysfunctional though, he's amiable and outgoing and in no way has he ever put me off. He's just really into the things he likes and he gives off a very "geeky" aura. His girlfriend, on the other hand, seems the opposite of him. She came with him to the meetup once when we were there, and she had such a "normal person" aura about her that I could tell she was only there because she had friends in the group, not because she liked teh animuz. But despite all of that, we had good conversation. She let us know that she wasn't into this stuff so she couldn't really discuss it, so instead we talked about Japan, weird products, our jobs, etc. I wound up really liking her. She and Brian seemed to get along really well, and she told me that she'd made quite a few friends by coming with him to the meetup before. Looking at the two of them together at first glance though, you'd have no idea how it could work.
So I guess this is the opposite of Emily's scenario, showing someone doing it right? :P
I think I remember something about women being born with all the ova they will ever have. Then after puberty hits, every month one or two will mature and be released for potential fertilization. Thus the ova have time to degrade.
As opposed to men, who have little sperm factories that are routinely making new gametes.
Or something.
It's been a long, long time since I took sex ed.
That's right. That's why men get $10 for donating sperm and women get thousands for eggs; we make infinite sperms, but women have finite eggs. Also, the harvesting is a lot more invasive in women.
The degradation is probably part of the reason that women's "biological clocks" start ticking louder past the age of (roughly) 30. There is a rapid and pronounced decline in fertility after that age, due in part to changing hormone levels and in part to decreased viability of ova, since the only ova left at that point are the oldest and thus the most damaged. Societal pressure is certainly a factor too, but there is definitely a biological impulse in women to reproduce before their ova become too damaged.
Yeah, the invasive part is the primary reason for the higher pay, darlin'. I actually looked into that a while back, and HOLY SHIT. You have to take all kinds of drugs and crap. It's a hell of a lot easier for you guys, and you can do it more than once.
That's right. That's why men get $10 for donating sperm and women get thousands for eggs; we make infinite sperms, but women have finite eggs. Also, the harvesting is a lot more invasive in women.
On a related note: Its really hard to even be allowed to donate an egg. It is also hard to be allowed to donate sperm, but if a man successfully jumps through all of the hoops, he can donate and get his money. His description is put in a database, and women shop for sperm like they are going through a clothes catalog. Even if no woman wants him, he has still donated and gotten paid for it.
With women, its a bit more complicated. If a woman passes the preliminary screenings, she can go on the list for egg recipients to browse through. There are families looking for a very specific woman to donate. The family will most likely always want a woman who is tall, beautiful, thin/in shape, intelligent, have a specific eye and hair color, and have a perfect genetic background. The last qualification itself is very hard to find, not to mention the other superficial ones. If you are this magical perfect woman and a family chooses you, then you can donate your egg and get the moneys. It also takes a really long time to get the eggs. Guys can just wack off in a cup... women have to take several hormones injections, go to tons of appointments (including ultrasounds), and then finally get the eggs removed.
I would have loved to get 10,000 for my unwanted eggs. However after reading about it all, I gave up on that easy money making idea. Bleh.
Actually there was a study that showed sperm quality starts to decline at age 27. The drop wasn't quite what you see in ova after the woman hits 35 but, sperm are not as immune to aging as previously thought. I know a lot of studies have been done in China as well where fertility decreased by 45 or 50, and the sperm had many more physical abnormalities like extra heads or tails. Pregnancy genetic screening tests now ask if the father was over 50 at time of conception as a factor to have additional tests performed.
Another study (http://www.pnas.org/content/103/25/9601.long) shows that the older the man, the more likely he is to have sperm with lots of DNA damage. However, the sperm with damaged DNA are less motile so the chance of them actually making their way to an egg is pretty slim. So an older man with more damaged sperm may take longer to actually make a baby since the healthy sperm needs to get around the slow junky sperm. Although the paper also suggests that these damaged sperm could contribute to early losses as well, that can be seen more frequently in older couples trying to conceive.
Actually there was a study that showed sperm quality starts to decline at age 27. The drop wasn't quite what you see in ova after the woman his 35 but, sperm are not as immune to aging as previously thought. I know a lot of studies have been done in China as well where fertility decreased by 45 or 50, and the sperm had many more physical abnormalities like extra heads or tails. Pregnancy genetic screening tests now ask if the father was over 50 at time of conception as a factor to have additional tests performed.
Another study (http://www.pnas.org/content/103/25/9601.long) shows that the older the man is the more damaged his sperms' DNA is. However, the sperm with damaged DNA are less motile so the chance of them actually making their way to an egg is pretty slim. So an older man with more damaged sperm may take longer to actually make a baby but, the baby will probably be fine because of the healthy sperm that managed to get around the slow junk sperm that clogged everything up.
Hm. Wonder why that is. Do the testes just stop functioning as well with age? I suppose it's possible.
Hm. Wonder why that is. Do the testes just stop functioning as well with age? I suppose it's possible.
A lot of DNA copying is going on inside the testes. I would think after so much copying that more and more mistakes would just accumulate over time and then some of the proofreading enzymes fail as well, leading to the fragmentation. The only thing that copies itself as quickly and on such a large scale would be viruses and bacteria, and they make mistakes all the time. If you followed one strain of bacteria or virus for 40 years (and I know this has been done in E.coli) you'll see more defective (and mutated) copies than normal bacteria/virus.
Actually there was a study that showed sperm quality starts to decline at age 27. The drop wasn't quite what you see in ova after the woman hits 35 but, sperm are not as immune to aging as previously thought. I know a lot of studies have been done in China as well where fertility decreased by 45 or 50, and the sperm had many more physical abnormalities like extra heads or tails. Pregnancy genetic screening tests now ask if the father was over 50 at time of conception as a factor to have additional tests performed.
Another study (http://www.pnas.org/content/103/25/9601.long) shows that the older the man, the more likely he is to have sperm with lots of DNA damage. However, the sperm with damaged DNA are less motile so the chance of them actually making their way to an egg is pretty slim. So an older man with more damaged sperm may take longer to actually make a baby since the healthy sperm needs to get around the slow junky sperm. Although the paper also suggests that these damaged sperm could contribute to early losses as well, that can be seen more frequently in older couples trying to conceive.
Yea, the deal though with men is the sperm quality decreases but generally because of all the stuff I won't get into only the healthy sperm get to the egg anyhow, so it might be harder to get pregnant when your with a 60 year old man, but the 60 year old women is definitely not getting pregnant ;-p And the sperm that actually fertilizes is probably going to be healthy.
A lot of DNA copying is going on inside the testes. I would think after so much copying that more and more mistakes would just accumulate over time and then some of the proofreading enzymes fail as well, leading to the fragmentation. The only thing that copies itself as quickly and on such a large scale would be viruses and bacteria, and they make mistakes all the time. If you followed one strain of bacteria or virus for 40 years (and I know this has been done inE.coli) you'll see more defective (and mutated) copies than normal bacteria/virus.
In the testes? I don't think it would be a lot of degredation, but I suppose it's possible.
Actually, I remember a study pretty recently showing that frequent ejaculation greatly improves the health and quality of sperm. I wonder if it has a bit less to do with degredation of testicular function and more to do with a reduction in the frequency of ejaculation as a man grows older. That would mean his sperm is staying around longer, and since they're pretty fragile things, I would imagine they more readily accumulate damage. You have to "rotate the stock," so to speak.
Pete, think about the human body, you might work out everyday and be strong and in shape but at 60 your body has still degraded compared to what it could have been at 20.
Yea, the deal though with men is the sperm quality decreases but generally because of all the stuff I won't get into only the healthy sperm get to the egg anyhow, so it might be harder to get pregnant when your with a 60 year old man, but the 60 year old women is definitely not getting pregnant ;-p And the sperm that actually fertilizes is probably going to be healthy.
With IVF there was a case of a 60 year old woman giving birth to twins. As for only the healthy sperm fertilizing eggs in older men I don't think this is what's happening but I don't know of any studies that look at this specifically. I'm pretty sure a good portion of the bad sperm gets to the egg but because of all the defects the egg will either fail to implant, or it will lead to an early loss that could be mistaken for a late period. A combination of early losses and the lack of healthy sperm make more sense to me for the increased time to actually get to a healthy fetus.
In the testes? I don't think it would be a lot of degredation, but I suppose it's possible.
I'd actually be interested in looking at the source of the DNA fragmentation, is it just degradation from sitting on the shelf too long? Or, are proteins (telomerases/topoisomerases/proofreading enzymes/etc) failing and causing damage?
Yea, the deal though with men is the sperm quality decreases but generally because of all the stuff I won't get into only the healthy sperm get to the egg anyhow, so it might be harder to get pregnant when your with a 60 year old man, but the 60 year old women is definitely not getting pregnant ;-p And the sperm that actually fertilizes is probably going to be healthy.
With IVF there was a case of a 60 year old woman giving birth to twins. As for only the healthy sperm fertilizing eggs in older men I don't think this is what's happening but I don't know of any studies that look at this specifically. I'm pretty sure a good portion of the bad sperm gets to the egg but because of all the defects the egg will either fail to implant, or it will lead to an early loss that could be mistaken for a late period. A combination of early losses and the lack of healthy sperm make more sense to me for the increased time to actually get to a healthy fetus.
Yea I think you mistook my gloss over of getting to the egg meaning the travel time, when I really meant the whole collection of ways that the sperm can fail to implant.
This is why non-geeky girlfriends don't like talking much :-P
Yea, Biologists make the worst dinner guests... "So anyone want to talk about the genetic degradation of sperm or the long term effects of HPV on the genital area?
//why don't people come over for dinner parties :-(
Pete, think about the human body, you might work out everyday and be strong and in shape but at 60 your body has still degraded compared to what it could have been at 20.
Sure, but we know a lot of the causes of those things. I'm wondering about the causes of declining sperm quality with age. I find it difficult to imagine a significant degradation of the genetic material in the germ cells, but I suppose even a minor degradation would result in unhealthy sperm.
I'm sticking with my "declining frequency of ejaculation" hypothesis as a significant contributing factor to the decline in sperm quality over time.
I'm sticking with my "declining frequency of ejaculation" hypothesis as a significant contributing factor to the decline in sperm quality over time..
Hey, if you need to have some scientists to back you up on it, I'm sure most will agree just for the added benefit (regardless of whether it's actually true ;-p)
Frequency of ejaculation may rotate the stock, but you have to look at the base genetic material you are working with. As you age, the buffers on the ends of your thingies get shorter and shorter. RNA...and zippers and stuff...and mistakes during transcription. And that's natural in the aging process. So the DNA from which the sperm are being created ages as the dude ages. Thus the base DNA from which those little haploid cells originate degrades with age, causing a natural concurrent degradation in the quality of the sperm.
Comments
For example a guy at work just married and is having is first kid in his late 40's because he had a lot of trouble in the Philly suburbs finding the correct type of jewish girl that would marry him and follow his traditions... They might not have anything in common other then culture.. It just matters what is important to you.
@WindUpBird: Dooooo iiitttttt! Give her a chance. You'll never know unless you try. She maybe the right kind of crazy.
As opposed to men, who have little sperm factories that are routinely making new gametes.
Or something.
It's been a long, long time since I took sex ed.
One guy, Brian, is very geeky. He's quite involved with the group, he's seen a loooot of anime, and he can go on about it forever. I wouldn't call him socially dysfunctional though, he's amiable and outgoing and in no way has he ever put me off. He's just really into the things he likes and he gives off a very "geeky" aura. His girlfriend, on the other hand, seems the opposite of him. She came with him to the meetup once when we were there, and she had such a "normal person" aura about her that I could tell she was only there because she had friends in the group, not because she liked teh animuz. But despite all of that, we had good conversation. She let us know that she wasn't into this stuff so she couldn't really discuss it, so instead we talked about Japan, weird products, our jobs, etc. I wound up really liking her. She and Brian seemed to get along really well, and she told me that she'd made quite a few friends by coming with him to the meetup before. Looking at the two of them together at first glance though, you'd have no idea how it could work.
So I guess this is the opposite of Emily's scenario, showing someone doing it right? :P
The degradation is probably part of the reason that women's "biological clocks" start ticking louder past the age of (roughly) 30. There is a rapid and pronounced decline in fertility after that age, due in part to changing hormone levels and in part to decreased viability of ova, since the only ova left at that point are the oldest and thus the most damaged. Societal pressure is certainly a factor too, but there is definitely a biological impulse in women to reproduce before their ova become too damaged.
With women, its a bit more complicated. If a woman passes the preliminary screenings, she can go on the list for egg recipients to browse through. There are families looking for a very specific woman to donate. The family will most likely always want a woman who is tall, beautiful, thin/in shape, intelligent, have a specific eye and hair color, and have a perfect genetic background. The last qualification itself is very hard to find, not to mention the other superficial ones. If you are this magical perfect woman and a family chooses you, then you can donate your egg and get the moneys. It also takes a really long time to get the eggs. Guys can just wack off in a cup... women have to take several hormones injections, go to tons of appointments (including ultrasounds), and then finally get the eggs removed.
I would have loved to get 10,000 for my unwanted eggs. However after reading about it all, I gave up on that easy money making idea. Bleh.
Another study (http://www.pnas.org/content/103/25/9601.long) shows that the older the man, the more likely he is to have sperm with lots of DNA damage. However, the sperm with damaged DNA are less motile so the chance of them actually making their way to an egg is pretty slim. So an older man with more damaged sperm may take longer to actually make a baby since the healthy sperm needs to get around the slow junky sperm. Although the paper also suggests that these damaged sperm could contribute to early losses as well, that can be seen more frequently in older couples trying to conceive.
Most people you encounter in life are going to be like those women.
Actually, I remember a study pretty recently showing that frequent ejaculation greatly improves the health and quality of sperm. I wonder if it has a bit less to do with degredation of testicular function and more to do with a reduction in the frequency of ejaculation as a man grows older. That would mean his sperm is staying around longer, and since they're pretty fragile things, I would imagine they more readily accumulate damage. You have to "rotate the stock," so to speak.
//why don't people come over for dinner parties :-(
I'm sticking with my "declining frequency of ejaculation" hypothesis as a significant contributing factor to the decline in sperm quality over time.
EDIT: Isn't science awesome? I love us.
I just made that up, but it sounds plausible...