@ Timo: Thank you for the recommendations. I am not scared of math (or really any subject matter), though the math contained may be a bit beyond my current knowledge set - in which case, it will provide an even greater opportunity for learning as I utilize supplemental materials. If I hit any major snags that I cannot overcome without guidance, I will simply ask the forum or the FRC. Again, thank you for taking the time to help my overcome my ignorance.
There of course is easy ways to get the feynman lectures in Audiobook and cheaply....
"Math on tape is difficult to follow."
Doesn't that come from a movie or something? I think it does, but you'd have to be paying very close attention.
Actually, I remember watching the Feynman Lectures on film when I was in college. I highly recommend them, but I really don't think you'd get as much from audiobooks as a proper book or perhaps a video.
If you were dead set on getting an audiobook, I'll bet The Teaching Company has an introductory physics lecture series that is lighter on the maths than the Feynman Lectures.
To get back to the original subject matter, when discussing relationship problems with "non-geeky" friends/co-workers I often ask if the person has talked with their S.O. about their feelings/issue/problems and frequently they answer that they have not. Why are these people talking to me about their issues and not their S.O.? They complain to others before attempting to solve the problem directly and they are amazed when I point to examples in my own marriage when I have had a problem and discussed it with Adam and we make a plan/compromise/fix that we work on as a team in order to solve it. They seem shocked that I would discuss my thoughts and feelings in a direct manner with my partner. Have any of you encountered this? If so, how has it manifested?
To get back to the original subject matter, when discussing relationship problems with "non-geeky" friends/co-workers I often ask if the person has talked with their S.O. about their feelings/issue/problems and frequently they answer that they have not. Why are these people talking to me about their issues and not their S.O.? They complain to others before attempting to solve the problem directly and they are amazed when I point to examples in my own marriage when I have had a problem and discussed it with Adam and we make a plan/compromise/fix that we work on as a team in order to solve it. They seem shocked that I would discuss my thoughts and feelings in a direct manner with my partner. Have any of you encountered this? If so, how has it manifested?
I'm not really amazed that people go outside of the relationship to get advice. Better to run by a friend what you want to say and see how they think about it before you get into a large fight because you didn't think enough about what you were going to say. "Your being irrational or your just mad because your menstrating" Empathy is not a trait that everyone possesses in large qualities (*cough* Scott Rubin *cough*) and these people still succeed to get into relationships and therefore they will need help figuring out their significant other...
@ Scott: Running it by one good friend as the problem arises I can see, but complaining about it to many people for long periods of time without the intention of talking to the S.O.? That is what I am talking about.
Wow, Kate, you really got ticked at me about this. No, I do not hate these ladies, I just observed that compared to their husbands, they did not converse, and thus were boring at the party. Not only that, but I see this type of behavior often and wonder about it. (For example, the Firefly guy.) I grew up in a house where my parents had different tastes but also shared a lot in common, but above all things were debated and talked about, both in private and public. It was the lack of debate/interaction between two people who were ostensibly entering into the closest bond available at a societal level. I observed this at this one event and became concerned/intrigued/whatever.
To get back to the original subject matter, when discussing relationship problems with "non-geeky" friends/co-workers I often ask if the person has talked with their S.O. about their feelings/issue/problems and frequently they answer that they have not. Why are these people talking to me about their issues and not their S.O.? They complain to others before attempting to solve the problem directly and they are amazed when I point to examples in my own marriage when I have had a problem and discussed it with Adam and we make a plan/compromise/fix that we work on as a team in order to solve it. They seem shocked that I would discuss my thoughts and feelings in a direct manner with my partner. Have any of you encountered this? If so, how has it manifested?
Oh God, this happens to me all the time. One of my college friends always comes to me with boyfriend problems, and my advice is always "You should tell him this." I think it is that they are afraid of relationship failure, or afraid that their significant other will not accept their opinion. I've found, in my life, that any problem gets solved easier when confronted head on than if it is left to fester. If nothing else, however difficult emotionally it may be, it's pragmatic. Talking to a girl-friend or a co-worker is "safe" in that they have no direct effect on the situation. Talking about problems with the person involved has more at stake, but it actually has the possibility to solve the problem. That's why people often procrastinate by complaining to their friends. They want an easy solution that is not as difficult as actually breaking down and discussing the issue with the S.O.
I've known people that seemed vapid, vacuous, shallow, boring, dull, unintelligent, mean, asshole-ish, snobbish, arrogant, etc. and once I got to know them on a more intimate level there was a lot more to them and their redeeming qualities outweighed or negated their less than pleasing qualities.
From what I hear, you used to always not trust girls who dated crew guys when you first met them. I can name at least three people who you didn't like at first. It was like you were the crew's protector, which is kind of nice. Granted, to put this in my own perspective, remember when I went to Amber's party and then I was boo'ed because that one girl who was into Japan and animation thought I was pretentious? It was partly because I was dating Rym and she was jealous (apparently), but I may have very well come off as pretentious and snobby during that one event. That period of my life, when I had finally achieved my dream of busting out of the small town into the big city artist lifestyle, I was kinda full of myself. Gina said it, and while I was less so than she made me out to be, I was finally confident because I had achieved my big goals from high school. At the party I probably went blah Me + Japan Animation Metropolis blah, and the girl who was interested in those things might have been a little annoyed. So that is my flaw. Sometimes I come across as art girl full of pretension. I need to work on that. But don't we judge people at first impressions? I don't think there's too much wrong with that. This is part of the way that human sense patterns and react to novel interactions. It is only a problem if that is the only thing we ever judge people on. If I hung out with the ladies from the party, and they were funny and cool and happy, I would change my opinion. However, I can only react to the data available (the party), and seeing that this was merely one example in a trend I had noticed, I thought I would make a thread about it.
@ Scott: Running it by one good friend as the problem arises I can see, but complaining about it to many people for long periods of time without the intention of talking to the S.O.? That is what I am talking about.
It's a lot easier to bitch about a problem to an unconcerned third party than it is to actually confront the problem directly. Civil service is famous for ineffective and non-confrontational supervisors who allow people to be insubordinate. If you bring them a complaint about such a person, they'll agree with everything you say but do nothing about it.
A lot of people are afraid to confront their problems.
Kate, you are absolutely right. People have trouble talking to their SOs about difficult subjects, especially when they are insecure and worried about losing or harming the relationship. The fear of a bad reaction often keeps people from bringing up something important. That's why I think it is so incredibly important to be comfortable and secure with yourself and your needs before you can have a successful relationship. People who are secure know that if talking about a big issue ends the relationship, then it wasn't going to work anyway, and that's okay. I don't want to be in a relationship that is on terms I can't deal with. People who are afraid to be alone or afraid that they are in some way defective and shouldn't have the issues that they do have a very hard time with communication.
And dudes, it doesn't have to be rational. Emotions don't always follow rational boundaries. If something hits a trigger and it's an irrational reaction, you still have the right to talk to your SO about whatever set that trigger off. It's a good idea to think about it first and realize that it is an irrational reaction, but it is still a perfectly valid topic for conversation. "Hey, You did X and I reacted with Y. I know that it isn't a logical reaction, and I know you didn't mean to make me feel Y. However, I still felt Y, and I think it may be because (I have issues with my father, I have sexual trauma in my past, etc etc). Can we work on avoiding things that trigger those feelings and helping me work past them?"
EDIT: @ Emily: That only time the first-impression judgment is a problem is when someone is closed to supplementing that impression with further evidence.
I think one part of the problem is that people are boyfriend/girlfriend with somebody, but aren't also actual friends with them. A friend is someone you can hang with and talk with anytime anywhere about anything, and you get along. They like who you actually are, and you don't need to hide anything from them or put on a show.
It seems to me that a lot of people get into romantic relationships with people they aren't friends with. Think about a stereotypical relationship that starts with someone hitting on someone in a bar. One puts on a show to attract the other, or they put on shows for each other. It's not the truth of who they really are, it's a mating ritual, like a bird's song or its colorful feathers.
They want the relationship to continue, but it becomes difficult to maintain the performance for an extended period of time. If you spend a lot of time with someone, you are going to find out who they really are. It's not something you can hide forever.
This I think is how you get the stereotype of people changing after marriage. Two people put on a show, and keep the show going long enough to get married. Once they are married, there is no longer a concern the person will leave. They no longer need to exert all this effort putting on airs to ward off other potential mates. They've won the game. They then get comfortable in their new home/life and revert to their natural state. It's like a sudden transformation. That isn't the person you married! Of course not. You married the lie they created to attract you, and vice versa. Now you see their true self, and it is not someone you get along with at all.
Nobody would ever consider hiding something from an actual friend, yet they try to hide things from significant others all the time. It's because the significant others are not friends. They are people they are trying to attract by showing them false things, and hiding true things form them that they will dislike.
Well, I would actually say that there are different levels of friendship. There are some people I consider acquaintance friends (some people from college, people I hang our with occasionally) and I like them and know them a bit, but I wouldn't tell them my deepest darkest secrets out of nowhere.
People I don't know -> People I recognize from somewhere (I like them, but am pretty much neutral)-> People I hang out with occasionally and collaborate with. Coworkers, artists, etc. (fun to be around) -> Friend friends (people I get together with on a regular basis, just for the heck of it, don't worry about how they see me) -> Best Friends (Tell them all sorts of things, totally comfortable, look forward to seeing them all the time) -> Boyfriend (Best friend ++ with extra sex!)
Those are my levels. I think most people have the same thing.
Well, I would actually say that there are different levels of friendship. There are some people I consider acquaintance friends (some people from college, people I hang our with occasionally) and I like them and know them a bit, but I wouldn't tell them my deepest darkest secrets out of nowhere.
People I don't know -> People I recognize from somewhere (I like them, but am pretty much neutral)-> People I hang out with occasionally and collaborate with. Coworkers, artists, etc. (fun to be around) -> Friend friends (people I get together with on a regular basis, just for the heck of it, don't worry about how they see me) -> Best Friends (Tell them all sorts of things, totally comfortable, look forward to seeing them all the time) -> Boyfriend (Best friend ++ with extra sex!)
Those are my levels. I think most people have the same thing.
Wait, your Best friends just get normal sex, not the extra sex?
I think one part of the problem is that people are boyfriend/girlfriend with somebody, but aren't also actual friends with them.
THIS!
It just meshes better when your BF is like a BFF.
Also, if someone doesn't love me in the times I'm pretty and dark and geeking out in sweatpants with messy hair, then I rather not be with them. I hate having to put up a front just to be considered datable. Take me as I am, man.
Well, I would actually say that there are different levels of friendship. There are some people I consider acquaintance friends (some people from college, people I hang our with occasionally) and I like them and know them a bit, but I wouldn't tell them my deepest darkest secrets out of nowhere.
People I don't know -> People I recognize from somewhere (I like them, but am pretty much neutral)-> People I hang out with occasionally and collaborate with. Coworkers, artists, etc. (fun to be around) -> Friend friends (people I get together with on a regular basis, just for the heck of it, don't worry about how they see me) -> Best Friends (Tell them all sorts of things, totally comfortable, look forward to seeing them all the time) -> Boyfriend (Best friend ++ with extra sex!)
Those are my levels. I think most people have the same thing.
I thought I was the only one with the level thing in my head.
@ Emi: Just to clarify, I am not and was not ticked at you, I just thought some of your statements went a bit far. Those women could all be boring and/or shrewish, but on the info you had I saw you spiraling off (a tad) in the hyperbole and assumption direction. As for the party with Amber's friends (which I wasn't at), I have hear both sides and it sounds like there was existing bias on their side (primarily against Rym regarding arrogance and conceit and you got hit with it) and you were young and in the glow of minor self-importance that some accomplishment and first major travel adventure often creates. I think they were way too harsh about it, but remember that Amber was losing patience with Rym and that there had been a possible spurning issue with regard to her friend. (Her friend, by the way, is a really cool artist and I think you guys would be bosom buddies if you had met under different circumstances.) As for me being biased against the crew's ladies friends, I think that is blow way out of proportion, as the way of FRC legend. There were only two girls I actively disliked and that was because 1) They didn't seem to like me much and 2) They weren't very nice people. One the guy broke up with and the other seriously used and manipulated two of the members of the crew, contributing to a schism with one of the members of the crew. A few of the gals I didn't know very well and/or had little interest in know (all three of those relationships ended on their own steam because the ladies were lackluster). I liked you, Amber (former FRC girl and one of my closest friends), Nuri, Jess, Lisa and Laura right of the bat. In short, I liked all the girls that were worth liking.
@ Rubin: People can meet in bars, at hobby clubs, at discussion groups, at work, etc. and just have a conversation without putting on a show or decide to put on a show. No setting makes it impossible to get to know someone genuinely and as a friend and a possible mate. You are absolutely right that romantic partners should be friends. I agree with Emily. There are different levels, depths and dynamics of friendships. I have problems recognizing that because once I deem someone a friend, I care for them like family. This not only used to cause social gaffes, but it can also lead to a lot of pain because very few friends can/will return that same level of care, affection, and intimacy.
Nah, I've categorised all my friends into levels as well with about the same levels as Emily just mentioned.
Scott: What's your definition of hiding something from "friend's" because I'm kinda confused how you think friends never hide or obfuscate aspects of their lives from each other.
Nah, I've categorised all my friends into levels as well with about the same levels as Emily just mentioned.
Levels are soooooo 2001. Everything these days is about assigning Reputations and Affiliations to your friends. For example, you'd have at least a 1D infamous reputation for your mom.
Scott: What's your definition of hiding something from "friend's" because I'm kinda confused how you think friends never hide or obfuscate aspects of their lives from each other.
Obviously there is no obligation to tell every person who is a friend every single thing. I mean, I don't go telling anyone boring details of what I did at work today, because they really don't care. I'm also sure that people probably aren't that interested in other people's bedroom/bathroom details. That being said, if someone is a real friend, you're not going to go out of your way to hide some part of yourself from them.
For example, if you like apples and bananas, but another person likes apples and hates bananas. You know they hate bananas. Do you hide the fact that you like bananas from them? If you do, then obviously you don't trust them enough to have a real friend relationship with them. Likewise, if you told them you liked bananas, and they hated you for it, obviously they didn't really care about you, and weren't a true friend to begin with.
You see a similar thing going on with kids who hide atheism/homosexulaity/etc. from their parents. They're often worried that their parents will disown them, or some such. I think it's obvious that a parent who would do such a thing doesn't truly love their child unconditionally, so fuck 'em.
I know my parents wouldn't care if I became a transexual voodoo witch doctor, because they love me unconditionally. And vice versa, I wouldn't love my mom any less no matter almost anything. Maybe if she tried to kill me. Even then it would probably be because she became crazy somehow, and I would want to help her un-crazy. Think Terminator 2 as a good example of loving a crazy mom.
If I have something I need to tell someone, I feel totally ok telling any friend with no hesitation. And reverse, I can listen to anything a friend has to say, and it won't be an issue.
If you think about it, it's really part of the definition of what a real friend is (sorry, no true Scotsman fallacy). Take someone like... Uncle Yo. He's a cool dude, an acquaintance of mine. We work together at cons, get along. No problem with him. But let's say I have something that is private-ish. For the sake of allowing more funny jokes in this thread, let's say I have a medical condition in some parts. I'm probably not going to tell Uncle Yo. That would be weird. I'm also 100% sure he doesn't want to hear about that. Why? Because he's an acquaintance, not a close friend. But anyone who is in my family or crew, I can tell them no problem. Obviously it will create many funny jokes, but I'll also get what I need, and nobody will unfriend or disown me for it.
And that's how you know if someone is a real friend. If you are comfortable telling them anything, and comfortable with them telling you anything. It's the reverse, you see. If you aren't comfortable telling someone something, they weren't your real friend to begin with.
If you're going to marry someone, you are going to be spending the majority of your remaining life with them. They are going to be the single most important person in your life besides yourself. If you aren't comfortable telling them anything, or them telling you anything, that's a pretty serious problem. Marrying such a person would be a big mistake.
Comments
Doesn't that come from a movie or something? I think it does, but you'd have to be paying very close attention.
Actually, I remember watching the Feynman Lectures on film when I was in college. I highly recommend them, but I really don't think you'd get as much from audiobooks as a proper book or perhaps a video.
If you were dead set on getting an audiobook, I'll bet The Teaching Company has an introductory physics lecture series that is lighter on the maths than the Feynman Lectures.
Have any of you encountered this? If so, how has it manifested?
A lot of people are afraid to confront their problems.
And dudes, it doesn't have to be rational. Emotions don't always follow rational boundaries. If something hits a trigger and it's an irrational reaction, you still have the right to talk to your SO about whatever set that trigger off. It's a good idea to think about it first and realize that it is an irrational reaction, but it is still a perfectly valid topic for conversation. "Hey, You did X and I reacted with Y. I know that it isn't a logical reaction, and I know you didn't mean to make me feel Y. However, I still felt Y, and I think it may be because (I have issues with my father, I have sexual trauma in my past, etc etc). Can we work on avoiding things that trigger those feelings and helping me work past them?"
EDIT: @ Emily: That only time the first-impression judgment is a problem is when someone is closed to supplementing that impression with further evidence.
It seems to me that a lot of people get into romantic relationships with people they aren't friends with. Think about a stereotypical relationship that starts with someone hitting on someone in a bar. One puts on a show to attract the other, or they put on shows for each other. It's not the truth of who they really are, it's a mating ritual, like a bird's song or its colorful feathers.
They want the relationship to continue, but it becomes difficult to maintain the performance for an extended period of time. If you spend a lot of time with someone, you are going to find out who they really are. It's not something you can hide forever.
This I think is how you get the stereotype of people changing after marriage. Two people put on a show, and keep the show going long enough to get married. Once they are married, there is no longer a concern the person will leave. They no longer need to exert all this effort putting on airs to ward off other potential mates. They've won the game. They then get comfortable in their new home/life and revert to their natural state. It's like a sudden transformation. That isn't the person you married! Of course not. You married the lie they created to attract you, and vice versa. Now you see their true self, and it is not someone you get along with at all.
Nobody would ever consider hiding something from an actual friend, yet they try to hide things from significant others all the time. It's because the significant others are not friends. They are people they are trying to attract by showing them false things, and hiding true things form them that they will dislike.
//I'm sorry it was too easy...
People I don't know -> People I recognize from somewhere (I like them, but am pretty much neutral)-> People I hang out with occasionally and collaborate with. Coworkers, artists, etc. (fun to be around) -> Friend friends (people I get together with on a regular basis, just for the heck of it, don't worry about how they see me) -> Best Friends (Tell them all sorts of things, totally comfortable, look forward to seeing them all the time) -> Boyfriend (Best friend ++ with extra sex!)
Those are my levels. I think most people have the same thing.
....No. None for you.
It just meshes better when your BF is like a BFF.
Also, if someone doesn't love me in the times I'm pretty and dark and geeking out in sweatpants with messy hair, then I rather not be with them. I hate having to put up a front just to be considered datable. Take me as I am, man. I thought I was the only one with the level thing in my head.
On topic post coming when I wake up.
As for the party with Amber's friends (which I wasn't at), I have hear both sides and it sounds like there was existing bias on their side (primarily against Rym regarding arrogance and conceit and you got hit with it) and you were young and in the glow of minor self-importance that some accomplishment and first major travel adventure often creates. I think they were way too harsh about it, but remember that Amber was losing patience with Rym and that there had been a possible spurning issue with regard to her friend. (Her friend, by the way, is a really cool artist and I think you guys would be bosom buddies if you had met under different circumstances.)
As for me being biased against the crew's ladies friends, I think that is blow way out of proportion, as the way of FRC legend. There were only two girls I actively disliked and that was because 1) They didn't seem to like me much and 2) They weren't very nice people. One the guy broke up with and the other seriously used and manipulated two of the members of the crew, contributing to a schism with one of the members of the crew. A few of the gals I didn't know very well and/or had little interest in know (all three of those relationships ended on their own steam because the ladies were lackluster). I liked you, Amber (former FRC girl and one of my closest friends), Nuri, Jess, Lisa and Laura right of the bat. In short, I liked all the girls that were worth liking.
@ Rubin: People can meet in bars, at hobby clubs, at discussion groups, at work, etc. and just have a conversation without putting on a show or decide to put on a show. No setting makes it impossible to get to know someone genuinely and as a friend and a possible mate.
You are absolutely right that romantic partners should be friends.
I agree with Emily. There are different levels, depths and dynamics of friendships. I have problems recognizing that because once I deem someone a friend, I care for them like family. This not only used to cause social gaffes, but it can also lead to a lot of pain because very few friends can/will return that same level of care, affection, and intimacy.
Scott: What's your definition of hiding something from "friend's" because I'm kinda confused how you think friends never hide or obfuscate aspects of their lives from each other.
I genuinely do love all my friends like family. I sincerely wish I was closer to all of them. I'm not and that sucks, but what the hell? C'est la vie.
2D reputation, Breaker of couches and men
//is amused that the top 9 of 10 posters in this thread are all FRC, why do we argue relationships so much ;-p
For example, if you like apples and bananas, but another person likes apples and hates bananas. You know they hate bananas. Do you hide the fact that you like bananas from them? If you do, then obviously you don't trust them enough to have a real friend relationship with them. Likewise, if you told them you liked bananas, and they hated you for it, obviously they didn't really care about you, and weren't a true friend to begin with.
You see a similar thing going on with kids who hide atheism/homosexulaity/etc. from their parents. They're often worried that their parents will disown them, or some such. I think it's obvious that a parent who would do such a thing doesn't truly love their child unconditionally, so fuck 'em.
I know my parents wouldn't care if I became a transexual voodoo witch doctor, because they love me unconditionally. And vice versa, I wouldn't love my mom any less no matter almost anything. Maybe if she tried to kill me. Even then it would probably be because she became crazy somehow, and I would want to help her un-crazy. Think Terminator 2 as a good example of loving a crazy mom.
If I have something I need to tell someone, I feel totally ok telling any friend with no hesitation. And reverse, I can listen to anything a friend has to say, and it won't be an issue.
If you think about it, it's really part of the definition of what a real friend is (sorry, no true Scotsman fallacy). Take someone like... Uncle Yo. He's a cool dude, an acquaintance of mine. We work together at cons, get along. No problem with him. But let's say I have something that is private-ish. For the sake of allowing more funny jokes in this thread, let's say I have a medical condition in some parts. I'm probably not going to tell Uncle Yo. That would be weird. I'm also 100% sure he doesn't want to hear about that. Why? Because he's an acquaintance, not a close friend. But anyone who is in my family or crew, I can tell them no problem. Obviously it will create many funny jokes, but I'll also get what I need, and nobody will unfriend or disown me for it.
And that's how you know if someone is a real friend. If you are comfortable telling them anything, and comfortable with them telling you anything. It's the reverse, you see. If you aren't comfortable telling someone something, they weren't your real friend to begin with.
If you're going to marry someone, you are going to be spending the majority of your remaining life with them. They are going to be the single most important person in your life besides yourself. If you aren't comfortable telling them anything, or them telling you anything, that's a pretty serious problem. Marrying such a person would be a big mistake.