Ok, so the BKB has a timer. 10 seconds! 10 seconds is way more than enough to kill somebody. You can get one of those, find a magic user, get in the woods near them, activate it, then kill them GUARANTEED because they can't do anything about it. Considering characters can die in maybe 2 seconds, 10 may as well be forever. Just run and hide for the cooldown period then come get another guaranteed kill.
It lasts 10 seconds once. Once. That's game-changing in a long teamfight, but you'd never want to blow your first BKB charge on getting a single kill in the jungle. That shit goes down to just a few seconds after you've used it a bit.
I think a lot of these problems could also be solved just by giving heros way way way more HP than they have now. How about just taking the game as is and multiplying everyone's HP by a factor of 3 or 4? Now when they rush in and do that crazy unstoppable team attack, you've lost a big chunk of your health, but not %100. They would actually have to get you with that shit several times to actually kill you, and you would always be able to counter-attack. Battles would be much more interesting with a lot of back and forth, instead of just attack and instant death. You have to do several combos to actually win a round of a fighting game unless it's Killer Instinct.
I think your fights are like this because you're still in the nub matchmaking bracket. In better games, fights can last ages and there's a lot more back and forth. Increasing everyone's HP by some multiple is a terrible idea. It's hard enough to kill people earlygame without running out of mana as is, if you were to do this literally no-one would die before about the 25 minute mark.
I'm hoping to make what almost might be a new kind of game. Maybe they'll call it a second generation MOBA. I think of it as when FPS were transformed from 2d to 3d. It's obviously the same kind of game, but it's also completely new.
Been away from here for a while, but I'm very glad to see that Scott is giving Dota 2 a real attempt. It is a very difficult game for a new person to get into, especially if trying alone.
Though I disagree with almost every comment he has made about the "problems" or things that should be changed, he has my respect for at least trying the game first. Honestly, many of the complaints make sense from a newbies' perspective, but are what make the game great to more experienced players. All the seemingly illogical or silly mechanics allows for a lot of creativity and open up many tactics and strategies that a new person would not understand. The exciting metagame shifts over the years have only been possible because of this, and it rarely becomes stale. It is the only reason that I have played this game (Dota 1 and Dota 2) for almost a decade.
Some of the best gaming times of my life were when 10 of us all crammed into a dorm shouting and shit talking to each other over games of Dota until breakfast.
As a quick side note, to answer your question on something being a "hard counter" to something else is only partially true. Sure, some heroes are definitely a counter to another hero in that you will probably be guarantee to die to them. But this is not a 1v1 deathmatch game; it is a team game. Even if you can't kill another hero as long as you have team work it doesnt matter. If you cant kill someone, don't fight them. When that spirit breaker charges you from 2 screens away (that super fast guy that you can't avoid) run to your tower and tell your team and they should teleport in and help. There are many things to the game that you just need to play more to understand. There is a reason it's one of the most popular esports.
Mostly there are things that can be simplified and removed. Lol is the streamlined and less silly version of dota. Now there were a few other mobas like Tides of Blood or others that were interesting. Dota works because all the sillyness has been implemented over a long period of iterative changes. Everything kind of works because of years of tweaks and fixes. The end result is something that is very deep and can be awesome but has tons of kludges and is very rough around the edges.
Dota is an interesting but very flawed first generation. Mechanics that are just silly include the orb mechanics and the animation cancelling that comes with it, the secret shops (Demigod although kinda bad had a cool mechanic where people could fight for access to the secret shop and made it a game objective). Some of the champion designs are very rock sissors. I mean they can be countered but I feel it only really works in a draft format. The kits in dota are very extreme but there are many unispired ones that are pretty boring. Also there is a learning cliff. Lol and others do have a learning cliff as well. The ftp ascpect actually helps in this regard. Each week there are a few free champions to play. The free champions and the cheap champions show up each game. This makes it easier to learn.
One thing that I do like about the dota mechanics is that last hitting fills an interesting role. It allows for many plays that give a small reward. So the problem that dota and league have encountered is that if you give people the ability to sustain in laning phase or over extended engagements. Lasting hitting is cool because it means that you can make people decide between taking damage or getting money. So it creates this interesting dynamic between champions. If you are going to have something that replaces the creepwave style other opportunities for microplays should come into it.
Now bloodline champions is probably more along the lines of what scott wants. To bad it is supper hard to get into now. I started with the champion edition after closed beta. Having an option for like 80 dollars to buy the entire game was cool. The runes mastery system that was added to the game is bad for the game in general. It means noobs are not as strong as experienced players to start with and that is simply silly. On the plus side the skill aspect is very strong. You can play well to come back from bad situations. I think that blood line champions should be something to pick up if you are interested in the polar opposite of dota.
I was just at a Netrunner tournament talking with one of the other players. He saw my DotA video on YouTube and told me he plays LoL. He also mentioned Bloodline Champions, so I'm going to check it out for sure.
As for microplays I do think you are right. A big game made up of many smaller games is key. However, the last hitting game is not the best. What if you just got gold/XP in proportion to how much damage you dealt instead of how well timed you fired your one shot of damage?
Oooh, how about this. They drop gold on the ground! Are you man enough to run in and grab it, where you will surely get hurt or killed?
My mind is starting to wander in the direction of a cross between DotA and Roguelikes.
Oooh, how about this. They drop gold on the ground! Are you man enough to run in and grab it, where you will surely get hurt or killed.
Awesomenauts did something like that. You still get the gold if you get an last hit, but if creep dies on other creep it drops goldsack on the ground where anyone can pick it up.
The game will be long. I guarantee the game will be long. Even if you lose, you will get many levels. Unless you are way way worse than I am, you will get to cast your ultimate at least once and also buy some strong items. Even against the pros, you will get to build.
Slightly extreme example, but that's about the time it takes for a leaver to time out and the game has ended. And push strats stop you from doing shit if your team has a terrible early game heroes.
I learned two new things today that are wrong with this game.
[Two things]
Now, yes. I could technically move the camera anywhere on the map and maybe see it coming, but that's only if my creeps or teammates are in range of the enemy. These fuckers can use those attacks from the dark woods or while invisible and shit.
FRESH MEAT!
This game is loaded with tons and tons of hard counters. ["Hard counter" explained]
BWAHAHAHAHAHA.
In a good competitive game, human skill should be able to save you from any situation.
THIS EXCLUDES MY ENEMIES TIMING AND SACRIFICING SOME OF THEIR SHORT DURATION MAGICAL IMMUNITY TO SAVE THEMSELVES FROM ME WHILE I TRY TO KILL THEM. I ALSO FULLY COMPREHEND EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT THE WHOLE GAME AND ALL ITS MECHANICS AND THEIR CONSEQUENCES. I ALSO FEED LESS THAN XBOCT AND MY ULTS RIVAL PGG IN THEIR GLORY!
A level 1 guy should be able to kill a level 25 guy if they push the right buttons. It will take some incredibly amazing superhuman button pressing, but there are a few people on earth who have the ability to press buttons like that. I've watched fighting game tournaments, they exist. When you have hard counters and attacks that kill you before you even see them happen, it becomes literally impossible to react or use any of your skills, no matter how skilled you are.
NO SERIOUSLY GUYS, THESE ARE HARD COUNTERS AND INSTA-GIB ATTACKS ARE TOTALLY IN THE GAME AND NOT ME BEING EFFECTIVELY BLIND.
To give an example of all this BS combined. There was a guy in my last game who was some sort of charging monster. He was two screens away. I knew he was there. I'm moving back to my tower as quickly as I go. Suddenly he's already next to me. He had some crazy fast charging maneuver that lets him rush in faster than I can possibly move. As soon as it hits, which is unavoidable, I can't do anything. I tried pressing every button I had, but none of my abilities triggered. Then I was dead. He attacked from a screen away, it was literally impossible for me to avoid it. None of my skills worked as his charge attack was a hard counter to my entire character. Even if I could have somehow hit him before the charge hit me, I can't see the charge starting since it is off screen. What am I supposed to do, spend the whole game with my camera pointed at the enemy instead of myself?
GOD DAMN SPESS COWS MAN. GOD DAMN SPESS COWS. WHY THE FUCK DOES HE KEEP TARGETTING SOLO HEROES WITH NO TP SCROLLS OR STUNS? IT'S FUCKING STUPID IT TELL YOU.
Another example. I was walking in the water. This dude is there alone with low health. I shoot him and then run away. He comes close to dying, but not quite. Next thing I know he transformed into some dark cloud like Nightmare Moon. This cloud is next to me. I can't do anything at all. I can't hit it. It's effectively invincible. It does a crazy amount of damage. I can't even move. I'm dead. Bullshit.
PREACH IT BROTHER! FUCK ALL OUR OPPONENTS WHO DARE USE THEIR ULTIMATES WHILE WE ARE THOROUGHLY UNDERPREPARED TO DEAL WITH THE GUY SOLO! FUCKING GRADE A BULLSHIT.
Here's my ideas to fix this:
[Five fixes]
The game needs to be more like Pong. Even if the score is 9/0 It is possible to come back and win it 9/10. In Tetris, even if your board is almost full and theirs is empty, it's possible to clear it and come back. It's not over until it's over. In Tennis, even if your opponent is on match point, you can come back to win it. In MOBAs, that is the opposite of true. For a game that typically lasts 30+ minutes, every one of those minutes needs to be meaningful. At all times during the game both teams should still have a chance to win. If one team no longer has a chance to win, the game should end immediately. The combination of snowballing with a time consuming win condition makes it particularly excruciating. Even the one game I won got really boring standing around waiting to finally destroy the ancient minutes after we had clearly proven we had dominated.
10/10 SUGGESTIONS, TOTALLY LEGIT AND EVIDENT THAT ACTUAL RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE INTO THE MATTERS AT HAND. VOLVO PLS FIX. MINOR QUESTIONS IN REGARDS TO YOUR SUGGESTIONS THOUGH. REGARDING POINT ONE. WHAT ABOUT DISABLES? WILL THESE ALSO BE REDUCED ACCORDING TO SAID PERCENTAGE? IN TIME OR DURATION OR EXTEND OR --NVM LET'S JUST MAKE IT INCREASE THE COOLDOWN ON THE ABILITY CAST WHEN THAT ITEM IS ACTIVE. ICEFROG GIT ON IT. ABOUT POINT TWO. I TAKE IT YOU MEAN EVERYONE IS NOW CHAOS KNIGHT? TRIPLE A SUGGESTION, NEXT IS POINT THREE. I WHOLLY AGREE, ANY AND ALL PROJECTILES SHOULD MOVE AS FAST AS SKYWRATH MAGE'S ARCANE BO--CORRECTION, SLOWER THAN SKYWRATH MAGE'S ARCANE BOLT. TWO BROWN BOOTS SHOULD BE VIABLE WHOLE GAME. POINT FOUR. EVERYONE IS NOW CHAOS KNIGHT WITH 400 RANGE PUDGE HOOKS. DOTA TWO IS NOW ALSO A COVER BASED SHOOTER. DON'T WORRY, IT'S FIRST PERSON LIKE REAL GAMES ARE. POINT FIVE. AGREED. GETTING 1025 GOLD FOR ENDING A KILLING SPREE IS NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH TO OFFSET THE DAMAGE DONE. NOT TO MENTION THE PITIFUL AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE EVERYONE KILLING THE DUDE GETS. IT'S TERRIBLE. RIOT NERF PLOX. NOW BACK TO CHINA AND SHARPENING MY TURTLE SOME MORE.
It sounds an awful lot like you're just listing off a number of abilities that you've had trouble playing against because the appropriate responses are non-obvious, and calling them bad mechanics.
HERESY. FLAY THE NON-BELIEVER. DEATH TO THE INFIDEL! YOU ARE PROBABLY DANISH SOMEWHERE IN YOUR FAMILY, AREN'T YOU?!
I lol'ed at the second one, as he fights off the entire enemy team only to get killed by the oncoming creeps, but fucked if I know what's going on in the first one.
The only thing that makes sense in those videos is I recognize the whirlwind attack guy.
The real question, is do you recognize WHY he's whirling...?
Years of Instincts honed by the toughest ballet classes the world has to offer.
I lol'ed at the second one, as he fights off the entire enemy team only to get killed by the oncoming creeps, but fucked if I know what's going on in the first one.
Look closely-er. Keep your eye on the Bristleback.
I lol'ed at the second one, as he fights off the entire enemy team only to get killed by the oncoming creeps, but fucked if I know what's going on in the first one.
Scott, the biggest point you seem to neglect in your arguments is that MOBAs are designed as team games. If they were made so that every character was even in a 1v1 situation, or even so that it was always possible for any character to win a 1v1 fight against any other even when far behind in levels and/or items, you would enormously limit the strategic possibilities on the 5v5 level.
Another crucial thing you're probably missing is how very important it is to usewards. Wards are absolutely essential in this type of game.
Also, despite your assertions to the contrary, it is entirely true that in MOBAs outplaying your opponents, especially at the team level, can still overcome relatively large initial disadvantages. Yes, snowballing can be rather frustrating. The issue with it is that responding to it properly requires genuine teamwork, and that can be quite difficult to achieve when you're playing a solo queue game.
Yes, snowballing can be rather frustrating. The biggest issue with it is that responding to it properly requires genuine teamwork, and that can be quite difficult to achieve when you're playing a solo queue game.
I've found that people in solo queue respond well if you over communicate and be polite; everyone is there to play a team game, you just have to break the ice. Also, like ns, if nobody wants to be in charge, take charge; usually people are just happy to have someone do it. And if they don't like it, tell them to do it.
Yes, snowballing can be rather frustrating. The biggest issue with it is that responding to it properly requires genuine teamwork, and that can be quite difficult to achieve when you're playing a solo queue game.
I've found that people in solo queue respond well if you over communicate and be polite; everyone is there to play a team game, you just have to break the ice. Also, like ns, if nobody wants to be in charge, take charge; usually people are just happy to have someone do it. And if they don't like it, tell them to do it.
I agree that is what I have seen. Problem is that I can't take the lead like I could in say, NS, because I don't know what I should be doing let alone what other people should be doing.
The only thing that makes sense in those videos is I recognize the whirlwind attack guy.
But Axe is not there!
I lol'ed at the second one, as he fights off the entire enemy team only to get killed by the oncoming creeps, but fucked if I know what's going on in the first one.
Those are allied creeps. Bristleback just doesn't die.
Glorious dunking in the first picture. Don't see an Eblade though so only 7/10 dunk.
I can't tell because I've not played Dota 2, is the guy in the first video with the spear what used to be a very "white" colored hero with a spear that used to get damage based on run speed and/or distance I think? Making estimates based on Dota is apparently not entirely useless but difficult.
I know who Bristleback is and what he does, but I didn't actually recognize that that was Bristleback in the second gif.
Glorious dunking in the first picture. Don't see an Eblade though so only 7/10 dunk.
Actually, if you look closely at the buffrow you see that he activated ghost scepter in the end, so still pretty good dunk.
What is the deal with ghost scepter? I've tried to use it, but it doesn't work as advertised. It's supposed to make me unattackable, but also prevent me from attacking, which is perfect for running away. Yet, every time I use it in a big battle, I die anyway. Does it only prevent normal attacks and still let you get hit by special attacks? Can it prevent a tower from hitting me?
What is the deal with ghost scepter? I've tried to use it, but it doesn't work as advertised. It's supposed to make me unattackable, but also prevent me from attacking, which is perfect for running away. Yet, every time I use it in a big battle, I die anyway. Does it only prevent normal attacks and still let you get hit by special attacks? Can it prevent a tower from hitting me?
It prevents rightclicks, but amplifies incoming magic damage. It's situationally useful item and I very rarely get it.
What is the deal with ghost scepter? I've tried to use it, but it doesn't work as advertised. It's supposed to make me unattackable, but also prevent me from attacking, which is perfect for running away. Yet, every time I use it in a big battle, I die anyway. Does it only prevent normal attacks and still let you get hit by special attacks? Can it prevent a tower from hitting me?
It prevents rightclicks, but amplifies incoming magic damage. It's situationally useful item and I very rarely get it.
What item should I buy that I can use to escape death?
Comments
You might want to watch a pro game to get an idea of what it's really like. I don't know of any good VODs to recommend, but Alienware cup is on this weekend: Watch live video from beyondthesummit on www.twitch.tv
Though I disagree with almost every comment he has made about the "problems" or things that should be changed, he has my respect for at least trying the game first. Honestly, many of the complaints make sense from a newbies' perspective, but are what make the game great to more experienced players. All the seemingly illogical or silly mechanics allows for a lot of creativity and open up many tactics and strategies that a new person would not understand. The exciting metagame shifts over the years have only been possible because of this, and it rarely becomes stale. It is the only reason that I have played this game (Dota 1 and Dota 2) for almost a decade.
Some of the best gaming times of my life were when 10 of us all crammed into a dorm shouting and shit talking to each other over games of Dota until breakfast.
As a quick side note, to answer your question on something being a "hard counter" to something else is only partially true. Sure, some heroes are definitely a counter to another hero in that you will probably be guarantee to die to them. But this is not a 1v1 deathmatch game; it is a team game. Even if you can't kill another hero as long as you have team work it doesnt matter. If you cant kill someone, don't fight them. When that spirit breaker charges you from 2 screens away (that super fast guy that you can't avoid) run to your tower and tell your team and they should teleport in and help. There are many things to the game that you just need to play more to understand. There is a reason it's one of the most popular esports.
Dota is an interesting but very flawed first generation. Mechanics that are just silly include the orb mechanics and the animation cancelling that comes with it, the secret shops (Demigod although kinda bad had a cool mechanic where people could fight for access to the secret shop and made it a game objective). Some of the champion designs are very rock sissors. I mean they can be countered but I feel it only really works in a draft format. The kits in dota are very extreme but there are many unispired ones that are pretty boring. Also there is a learning cliff. Lol and others do have a learning cliff as well. The ftp ascpect actually helps in this regard. Each week there are a few free champions to play. The free champions and the cheap champions show up each game. This makes it easier to learn.
One thing that I do like about the dota mechanics is that last hitting fills an interesting role. It allows for many plays that give a small reward. So the problem that dota and league have encountered is that if you give people the ability to sustain in laning phase or over extended engagements. Lasting hitting is cool because it means that you can make people decide between taking damage or getting money. So it creates this interesting dynamic between champions. If you are going to have something that replaces the creepwave style other opportunities for microplays should come into it.
Now bloodline champions is probably more along the lines of what scott wants. To bad it is supper hard to get into now. I started with the champion edition after closed beta. Having an option for like 80 dollars to buy the entire game was cool. The runes mastery system that was added to the game is bad for the game in general. It means noobs are not as strong as experienced players to start with and that is simply silly. On the plus side the skill aspect is very strong. You can play well to come back from bad situations. I think that blood line champions should be something to pick up if you are interested in the polar opposite of dota.
As for microplays I do think you are right. A big game made up of many smaller games is key. However, the last hitting game is not the best. What if you just got gold/XP in proportion to how much damage you dealt instead of how well timed you fired your one shot of damage?
Oooh, how about this. They drop gold on the ground! Are you man enough to run in and grab it, where you will surely get hurt or killed?
My mind is starting to wander in the direction of a cross between DotA and Roguelikes.
Slightly extreme example, but that's about the time it takes for a leaver to time out and the game has ended. And push strats stop you from doing shit if your team has a terrible early game heroes. FRESH MEAT! BWAHAHAHAHAHA. THIS EXCLUDES MY ENEMIES TIMING AND SACRIFICING SOME OF THEIR SHORT DURATION MAGICAL IMMUNITY TO SAVE THEMSELVES FROM ME WHILE I TRY TO KILL THEM. I ALSO FULLY COMPREHEND EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT THE WHOLE GAME AND ALL ITS MECHANICS AND THEIR CONSEQUENCES. I ALSO FEED LESS THAN XBOCT AND MY ULTS RIVAL PGG IN THEIR GLORY! NO SERIOUSLY GUYS, THESE ARE HARD COUNTERS AND INSTA-GIB ATTACKS ARE TOTALLY IN THE GAME AND NOT ME BEING EFFECTIVELY BLIND. GOD DAMN SPESS COWS MAN. GOD DAMN SPESS COWS. WHY THE FUCK DOES HE KEEP TARGETTING SOLO HEROES WITH NO TP SCROLLS OR STUNS? IT'S FUCKING STUPID IT TELL YOU. PREACH IT BROTHER! FUCK ALL OUR OPPONENTS WHO DARE USE THEIR ULTIMATES WHILE WE ARE THOROUGHLY UNDERPREPARED TO DEAL WITH THE GUY SOLO! FUCKING GRADE A BULLSHIT. 10/10 SUGGESTIONS, TOTALLY LEGIT AND EVIDENT THAT ACTUAL RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE INTO THE MATTERS AT HAND. VOLVO PLS FIX. MINOR QUESTIONS IN REGARDS TO YOUR SUGGESTIONS THOUGH. REGARDING POINT ONE. WHAT ABOUT DISABLES? WILL THESE ALSO BE REDUCED ACCORDING TO SAID PERCENTAGE? IN TIME OR DURATION OR EXTEND OR --NVM LET'S JUST MAKE IT INCREASE THE COOLDOWN ON THE ABILITY CAST WHEN THAT ITEM IS ACTIVE. ICEFROG GIT ON IT. ABOUT POINT TWO. I TAKE IT YOU MEAN EVERYONE IS NOW CHAOS KNIGHT? TRIPLE A SUGGESTION, NEXT IS POINT THREE. I WHOLLY AGREE, ANY AND ALL PROJECTILES SHOULD MOVE AS FAST AS SKYWRATH MAGE'S ARCANE BO--CORRECTION, SLOWER THAN SKYWRATH MAGE'S ARCANE BOLT. TWO BROWN BOOTS SHOULD BE VIABLE WHOLE GAME. POINT FOUR. EVERYONE IS NOW CHAOS KNIGHT WITH 400 RANGE PUDGE HOOKS. DOTA TWO IS NOW ALSO A COVER BASED SHOOTER. DON'T WORRY, IT'S FIRST PERSON LIKE REAL GAMES ARE. POINT FIVE. AGREED. GETTING 1025 GOLD FOR ENDING A KILLING SPREE IS NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH TO OFFSET THE DAMAGE DONE. NOT TO MENTION THE PITIFUL AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE EVERYONE KILLING THE DUDE GETS. IT'S TERRIBLE. RIOT NERF PLOX. NOW BACK TO CHINA AND SHARPENING MY TURTLE SOME MORE. HERESY. FLAY THE NON-BELIEVER. DEATH TO THE INFIDEL! YOU ARE PROBABLY DANISH SOMEWHERE IN YOUR FAMILY, AREN'T YOU?!
Now lets watch some hilarious gifs that are incomprehensible to the normals.
Another crucial thing you're probably missing is how very important it is to use wards. Wards are absolutely essential in this type of game.
Also, despite your assertions to the contrary, it is entirely true that in MOBAs outplaying your opponents, especially at the team level, can still overcome relatively large initial disadvantages. Yes, snowballing can be rather frustrating. The issue with it is that responding to it properly requires genuine teamwork, and that can be quite difficult to achieve when you're playing a solo queue game.
Glorious dunking in the first picture. Don't see an Eblade though so only 7/10 dunk.
I know who Bristleback is and what he does, but I didn't actually recognize that that was Bristleback in the second gif.
There are also character abilities that can mimic / replicate the effects of those items.
Omni-Knight can give a hero the same "Avatar" (Magic Immunity) effect the Black King Bar can, for example.