Like a lot of people have been saying, America is good in its ideals, but not always so great at upholding them. I rarely, if ever, feel patriotic - usually only when I'm reading some of the writings of our founding fathers or about revolutionary history, back when people actually had to get up and sacrifice for the freedoms that so many modern Americans -believe- they are fighting for from the comfort of their living rooms. Ironically, those are the people who always seem to be the most "nostalgic for something that never existed".
I usually prefer feelings of love to be reciprocal. If America loves me, it has a funny way of showing it.
I had a friend who was born in Egypt, but moved here before he was 1. On all of his college apps he marked down African American. He was white and jewish.
I just wanted to add though, that while I don't feel especially patriotic to the United States, many of my relatives, my grandparents and older relatives, and even my parents are very patriotic having come over to the U.S. from other countries.
Maybe I'm jaded... or lucky that I was born here and never had to go through what my older relatives did. Maybe if I had to escape from Europe or was kicked out of my old country, and moved here, started over again, prospered, and raised a new family, I'd appreciate the U.S. more.
I had a friend who was born in Egypt, but moved here before he was 1. On all of his college apps he marked down African American. He was white and jewish.
Genius.
I'd consider myself to be fairly patriotic-I'm considering joining the military. Then again, I've sworn to give up my citizenship if Palin or any other Tea Partier gets elected president.
I don't like the principles on which the US was founded. Slavery was written into the constitution, women had no rights, ect.
If you want to see the principles that the nation was founded on, take a look at the Declaration of Independence instead.
I like the fact that these things have changed and are still changing. That there is a political solution to bringing on large scale, albeit slow progress toward a more perfect society.
This is the great thing about the Constitution, it's a living document that changes depending on the times-hence why there isn't slavery anymore, and why women have political rights these days.
But while the framework for most of this was written in to the founding of the US there were shit eaters back then who did everything in their power to stop it just as there are shit eaters today who are actively trying to subvert the country by exploiting the greed of the politicians and the idiocy of it most ignorant citizens.
There's always gonna be shit eaters out there who want to take a piss in the pool. It's just a matter of stopping them before they do too much damage.
I'd consider myself to be fairly patriotic-I'm considering joining the military. Then again, I've sworn to give up my citizenship if Palin or any other Tea Partier gets elected president.
I was in the military for 8 years, I left and went to college. Now I'm in my final semester and I am thinking about going back as an Officer. The military is a strange mix of the patriotic and unpatriotic. Most people in the service aren't all very patriotic and question a lot of the politics and sometimes even the motives of the founders of the US(usually done privately). But say the wrong thing and they will shit down your throat. Generally most people in the military want the average American to take their freedoms for granted. They want people to not fully understand how good they have it because that means they have never truly been oppressed. There is a lot of pride in that. So take it from someone who feels that way, It pisses me the fuck off to see peoples' lives crushed by mega-corps. and tool-bag politicians. It also breaks my heart to see people oppressed because of what they are.
I was in the military for 8 years, I left and went to college. Now I'm in my final semester and I am thinking about going back as an Officer. The military is a strange mix of the patriotic and unpatriotic. Most people in the service aren't all very patriotic and question a lot of the politics and sometimes even the motives of the founders of the US(usually done privately). But say the wrong thing and they will shit down your throat. Generally most people in the military want the average American to take their freedoms for granted. They want people to not fully understand how good they have it because that means they have never truly been oppressed. There is a lot of pride in that. So take it from someone who feels that way, It pisses me the fuck off to see peoples' lives crushed by mega-corps. and tool-bag politicians. It also breaks my heart to see people oppressed because of what they are.
That's a interesting take. I've always found that at least the marines I know don't have that view though, they want to be extremely patriotic and tend to get pissed if you are not "rah rah America" But that could be a function of Vietnam and getting shit on by the anti-war protestors. That's one area of modern American history I'll never figure out. Why the anti-war protesters decided to target the soldiers instead of the leaders to stop the war in Vietnam especially when there was a draft.... I wonder if that's more of more modern mindset coming from the military or just a Navy thing since they don't indoctrinate the same way or something.
The anti-war protesters of the time were all rich white folks who were able to escape the draft and didn't understand why those fighting in the war couldn't. Their image of soldiers wasn't that of those who were fighting, but of those in the propaganda, who almost don't exist and are inventions of the US Marketing department (I realize that's a strange thing to say, but still true.)
The anti-war protesters of the time were all rich white folks who were able to escape the draft and didn't understand why those fighting in the war couldn't. Their image of soldiers wasn't that of those who were fighting, but of those in the propaganda, who almost don't exist and are inventions of the US Marketing department (I realize that's a strange thing to say, but still true.)
Yes. They all felt that the soldiers were complicit murderers. They felt that if a soldier didn't agree with the war, why didn't they dodge the draft or at least go to prison instead? Also, Vietnam was Abu Gharib times ten. To make it even worse, the massacres and other horror stories of Vietnam are all stories of lowly soldiers shooting women and children and such. The horror stories of modern war are all about corrupt higher-ups and politicians, which maintains the image of the modern soldier as hero.
Ask an average person on the street who was responsible and what do you think they will say? Who got the biggest black eye from that story?
If you say Abu Graihb, I doubt the majority of the people will even know what you are talking about, let alone any names of the people who actually participated in the actions.
If you say Abu Graihb, I doubt the majority of the people will even know what you are talking about, let alone any names of the people who actually participated in the actions.
Cynical Rym: At best, they'll laud the US's efforts to capture this evil Abu Graihb, who clearly is a member of Al Qaeda.
Anyways, from personal experience, any Marine you meet who is motarded is probably fresh out of boot. From what I can tell, the Marines are this bizarre branch of our military which is both the most patriotic whilst simultaneously being the most cynical.
I was in the military for 8 years, I left and went to college. Now I'm in my final semester and I am thinking about going back as an Officer. The military is a strange mix of the patriotic and unpatriotic. Most people in the service aren't all very patriotic and question a lot of the politics and sometimes even the motives of the founders of the US(usually done privately). But say the wrong thing and they will shit down your throat. Generally most people in the military want the average American to take their freedoms for granted. They want people to not fully understand how good they have it because that means they have never truly been oppressed. There is a lot of pride in that. So take it from someone who feels that way, It pisses me the fuck off to see peoples' lives crushed by mega-corps. and tool-bag politicians. It also breaks my heart to see people oppressed because of what they are.
You know, I've never considered patriotism being all "rah rah, America fuck yeah!" Patriotism to me is all about loving your country, wanting what you honestly believe is best for it (which may not actually be best, but that's another debate), and so on. You can disagree with the founders of your country, the politics of those running it, etc., but those are separate entities from the country itself. I mean, I didn't like who was running the U.S. from 2001-2009, but I still rooted for the U.S. in the Olympics and all that (and rooting for your country in the Olympics is patriotic, IMHO).
The "America fuck yeah" stuff goes beyond patriotism to nationalism. I've always viewed "patriotism" as being a healthy love of your own country without necessarily "hating on" other countries (i.e. you can be patriotic without dissing every other country on the planet). "Nationalism" is when you make the leap from simply loving your country to loving your country at the expense of others, and that can be very bad if it goes unchecked.
I'd agree with that. I'd call myself Patriotic - I love my country right down to my bones, despite it's problems(the country, not my bones. My bones are fine.)
But, I also have a love/hate relationship with England - Leeds being the closest thing to an international second home I have - and I'm fond enough of the US to want to move there.
Why the anti-war protesters decided to target the soldiers instead of the leaders to stop the war in Vietnam especially when there was a draft
That always made me a little sad. Sure, there were soldiers that did cruel dickhead things, but most of the soldiers were drafted boys that the government, deathly afraid of communism, forced into hacking their way through the jungle. Not only that, many of them suffered damage at the hands of the military, because of Agent Orange. My uncle, a vet, is blind because of it and can't breath super well. I think Vietnam was a travesty, but I do not blame (most of) the soldiers. I think Iraq is a bad, wrong war, but I don't hate the regular soldiers. I do hate the torturing ones, though.
I'd agree with that. I'd call myself Patriotic - I love my country right down to my bones, despite it's problems(the country, not my bones. My bones are fine.)
But, I also have a love/hate relationship with England - Leeds being the closest thing to an international second home I have - and I'm fond enough of the US to want to move there.
I hear ya. I love the US as it is my country. I also love Portugal as it's where my family originated and I still have close relatives (uncles, aunts, cousins, etc.) there.
It frustrates me when people act like you don't love a country when you criticize it. Like, somehow I hate America if I don't love everything about American policy and culture. I like many countries. Take the example of Japan. I really like Japan, it's like a second home to me, but I am no weaboo who thinks it is some perfect wonderland. Every country has evil in their past and problems in their present. For example: I just found out yesterday that Norway tried to practice cultural and linguistic genocide on Sami and other indigenous cultures in the early 20th century, and that Sweden has a problem with blackface parties among college kids. These are countries the I really like, but I don't like these things about them at all. America is my dear home, but it is far from perfect.
It frustrates me when people act like you don't love a country when you criticize it. Like, somehow I hate America if I don't love everything about American policy and culture. I like many countries. Take the example of Japan. I really like Japan, it's like a second home to me, but I am no weaboo who thinks it is some perfect wonderland. Every country has evil in their past and problems in their present. For example: I just found out yesterday that Norway tried to practice cultural and linguistic genocide on Sami and other indigenous cultures in the early 20th century, and that Sweden has a problem with blackface parties among college kids. These are countries the I really like, but I don't like these things about them at all. America is my dear home, but it is far from perfect.
I agree with you 100%. I mean, people can love and criticize many things: their favorite sports teams, their children (hopefully only when it's justified, of course), other friends and family, etc. However, that criticism often comes from that love -- if you didn't care so much about them, you wouldn't be criticizing them. Why can't this also apply to countries? Every time I say something critical of America, it's not because I don't love America, but it's because I love it so much that I want it to be better than how I currently see it.
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I usually prefer feelings of love to be reciprocal. If America loves me, it has a funny way of showing it.
I just wanted to add though, that while I don't feel especially patriotic to the United States, many of my relatives, my grandparents and older relatives, and even my parents are very patriotic having come over to the U.S. from other countries.
Maybe I'm jaded... or lucky that I was born here and never had to go through what my older relatives did. Maybe if I had to escape from Europe or was kicked out of my old country, and moved here, started over again, prospered, and raised a new family, I'd appreciate the U.S. more.
I'd consider myself to be fairly patriotic-I'm considering joining the military. Then again, I've sworn to give up my citizenship if Palin or any other Tea Partier gets elected president. If you want to see the principles that the nation was founded on, take a look at the Declaration of Independence instead. This is the great thing about the Constitution, it's a living document that changes depending on the times-hence why there isn't slavery anymore, and why women have political rights these days. There's always gonna be shit eaters out there who want to take a piss in the pool. It's just a matter of stopping them before they do too much damage.
The "America fuck yeah" stuff goes beyond patriotism to nationalism. I've always viewed "patriotism" as being a healthy love of your own country without necessarily "hating on" other countries (i.e. you can be patriotic without dissing every other country on the planet). "Nationalism" is when you make the leap from simply loving your country to loving your country at the expense of others, and that can be very bad if it goes unchecked.
But, I also have a love/hate relationship with England - Leeds being the closest thing to an international second home I have - and I'm fond enough of the US to want to move there.