"One detainee who underwent "rectal feeding" was "in a forward-facing position" with his head lower than his torso. His "lunch tray" which consisted of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts and raisins "was 'pureed' and rectally infused.""
Dude Rym, there were Politicians defending all sorts of crazy stuff back in the day and currently. What matters to me is the report came out and we elected a president who stopped torture. (or at least covered it up better:-p)
Obama is just as implicit in the culture of torture if he does not push the DOJ to prosecute those responsible. If he does not, torture will always be an option for future presidents.
Problem is I see no outcome where Obama could have prosecuted those responsible without causing a massive uprising of conservative types in a extremely negative way. The little Obama did get done was probably accomplished because he didn't just toss a nuke into congress like that.
"One detainee who underwent "rectal feeding" was "in a forward-facing position" with his head lower than his torso. His "lunch tray" which consisted of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts and raisins "was 'pureed' and rectally infused.""
Problem is I see no outcome where Obama could have prosecuted those responsible without causing a massive uprising of conservative types in a extremely negative way. The little Obama did get done was probably accomplished because he didn't just toss a nuke into congress like that.
He needed to wait until this report came out anyway. Just like a DA, you don't bring your case until you have already collected the evidence. Now that we have the full report, something needs to happen. If Obama doesn't get around to it, the next President better.
Problem is I see no outcome where Obama could have prosecuted those responsible without causing a massive uprising of conservative types in a extremely negative way. The little Obama did get done was probably accomplished because he didn't just toss a nuke into congress like that.
He needed to wait until this report came out anyway. Just like a DA, you don't bring your case until you have already collected the evidence. Now that we have the full report, something needs to happen. If Obama doesn't get around to it, the next President better.
Or what? It's not like you guys are going to have a revolution.
I doubt any President will do anything till everyone involved is dead. It would be such a negative political move that would instantly divide the country.
And I'm Pro-trial. I'm just a realist about this sort of stuff.
Problem is I see no outcome where Obama could have prosecuted those responsible without causing a massive uprising of conservative types in a extremely negative way. The little Obama did get done was probably accomplished because he didn't just toss a nuke into congress like that.
So he should stay quiet in order to keep his job? What other thread have we been using lately to discuss the failure of good people who do nothing when bad people do bad things around them?
See I disagree, if he stayed quiet about the torture and let it continue he would have been doing a bad thing but since he put a stop to it. I can't fault him for not wanting to dish out punishment because it would get extremely messy and witch hunt like and would really do nothing good for the CIA, National Security or the American Public in the end. I mean you are not going to get Bush in a charge like this, and hitting the lower level CIA guys for things that were "suggested" they do isn't helpful either. Anyone with any power would have enough wiggle room to escape being charged. Meanwhile you'll have people banging the drum of "Look at the President destroying our country's ability to defend itself. A republican congress that is not going to be happy if you start taking these guys to trail and honestly the American people in general don't want those people brought to trail.
The best you can do is to wage a continued media campaign that makes sure that the people who approved this are not taken seriously anymore and their names in history are tarnished.
I mean Bush Jr. Is never going to not be mentioned without "Torture, Gitmo and Iraq" mentioned soon after his Presidency.
Realism and justice are, as always, directly opposed and mutually exclusive.
Only because those who are in power acquired that power by unjust means. The people with the power to dispense justice are inherently opposed to it. If justice came, they would be on the receiving end of her sword, not balancing her scales.
The only way to achieve justice is for the power to dispense it to be held by those who have acquired power justly. This is next to impossible regardless of what political system or rules are in place. Cheating and getting away with it is the most superior superior strategy in every game ever.
Given a sufficient amount of time and incentive, any rule making body will eventually be controlled by cheaters. Once cheaters write the rules, you must reboot. Then you must make the most of that short time before justice fades again.
See I disagree, if he stayed quiet about the torture and let it continue he would have been doing a bad thing but since he put a stop to it. I can't fault him for not wanting to dish out punishment because it would get extremely messy and witch hunt like and would really do nothing good for the CIA, National Security or the American Public in the end. I mean you are not going to get Bush in a charge like this, and hitting the lower level CIA guys for things that were "suggested" they do isn't helpful either. Anyone with any power would have enough wiggle room to escape being charged. Meanwhile you'll have people banging the drum of "Look at the President destroying our country's ability to defend itself. A republican congress that is not going to be happy if you start taking these guys to trail and honestly the American people in general don't want those people brought to trail.
The best you can do is to wage a continued media campaign that makes sure that the people who approved this are not taken seriously anymore and their names in history are tarnished.
I mean Bush Jr. Is never going to not be mentioned without "Torture, Gitmo and Iraq" mentioned soon after his Presidency.
No, the best you can do is bring charges against people who violated domestic and international law. However, you are so bought into the current system you fall for the trap that it will all work itself out in the future. Continued media campaign? What a fucking joke. I don't give a fuck if it would be "messy". We need to get our hands dirty if we want to fix anything.
Future tyrants thank you for implicitly consenting to the future use of enchanced interrogation techniques.
Results matter more than doing something just to feel better. I'm showing you why I don't feel you'll get any results from it and in reality they won't be positive for anyone involved.
We don't need to worry about Future Tyrants, Andrew, we live in a world right now that has tyrants and other governments torturing people.
Again, I would love to see the people who crafted this policy brought to Trail. I just don't believe it would have the outcome I would hope for.
It's a catch-22 really. To prevent prosecution of torturers is to become somewhat complicit. To actively prosecute torturers is to commit political suicide. Not enough of the nation is really ready to live with the idea of the US committing evil acts. Too many people look at these reports and sense that something is wrong, but their pysche screams back "America is awesome, we are awesome!" and as a defense mechanism, rationalizes, projects, or just buries anything that might contradict that.
This is of similar effect to studies that show when you give a person evidence debunking one of their beliefs such as "WMD's were found in Iraq" the evidence proving them wrong will make them believe the lie even more strongly.
Unless we can break through those barriers, or energize the presidential electorate to vote all the time up and down ballot, there isn't the political will to change much at all.
Holy crap that was cray cray. Also I love how they considering that the democrats are releasing the report now for political reasons, I would think it would be better to release it before the election!!!
Obama could publically call for war crimes trials and an independent investigatory commission to prosecute them.
Much like Cuomo, that commission would end up investigating Obama himself. Because using drones to bomb innocents is also a war crime. Depending on your definition and reach, you could probably find most of the government guilty.
The guys who have been defending torture like Rep. Peter King should really STFU or they are going to get a trial out of it. I mean if they just played it cool this story would eventually die off.
I'd like to add that Article IV of the US Constitution says that the supreme laws of the land consist of the Constitution itself and any treaties ratified by the USA.
The USA ratified the UN Convention Against Torture all the way back in 1994.
Therefore, all the pro-torture folks are obviously anti-Constitution...
(not that it matters if you have to debate them, but still...)
Comments
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/the-cia-torture-report-is-a-carnival-of-horrors-42345bcfdce5
So I guess I'm still patriotic.
And I'm Pro-trial. I'm just a realist about this sort of stuff.
The best you can do is to wage a continued media campaign that makes sure that the people who approved this are not taken seriously anymore and their names in history are tarnished.
I mean Bush Jr. Is never going to not be mentioned without "Torture, Gitmo and Iraq" mentioned soon after his Presidency.
The only way to achieve justice is for the power to dispense it to be held by those who have acquired power justly. This is next to impossible regardless of what political system or rules are in place. Cheating and getting away with it is the most superior superior strategy in every game ever.
Given a sufficient amount of time and incentive, any rule making body will eventually be controlled by cheaters. Once cheaters write the rules, you must reboot. Then you must make the most of that short time before justice fades again.
Future tyrants thank you for implicitly consenting to the future use of enchanced interrogation techniques.
We don't need to worry about Future Tyrants, Andrew, we live in a world right now that has tyrants and other governments torturing people.
Again, I would love to see the people who crafted this policy brought to Trail. I just don't believe it would have the outcome I would hope for.
This is of similar effect to studies that show when you give a person evidence debunking one of their beliefs such as "WMD's were found in Iraq" the evidence proving them wrong will make them believe the lie even more strongly.
Unless we can break through those barriers, or energize the presidential electorate to vote all the time up and down ballot, there isn't the political will to change much at all.
Does the ends justify the means?
http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/9/7362757/the-man-who-fought-cia-torture-is-still-in-prison-john-kiriakou
The USA ratified the UN Convention Against Torture all the way back in 1994.
Therefore, all the pro-torture folks are obviously anti-Constitution...
(not that it matters if you have to debate them, but still...)