I have no desire to own a gun. I have used several kinds of guns in the past, and I'm glad to have been taught proper use, care, and handling of those firearms, and I would gladly use one again on a shooting range for fun. But I don't see any need to own one.
Whatever, but you still require some sort of education whether it be through a training course or learning on your own to be able to operate/drive a car. Shitty attempt at a straw man.
I really question your intelligence. I have no further desire to continue conversations with you.
I like guns, but I also know the power that they possess. Thus, I treat all firearms, loaded or not, with immense care and respect. I don't own a gun, but I go down to the range every once in a while and check out a 9mm pistol and .38 S&W Special. It is an experience, loading a gun, feeling it's heft, firing it, and feeling the shock run down your arm. But it feels good knowing that, should the occasion arise, you can shoot a smiley face onto a target like Mel Gibson did in Lethal Weapon.
I also have some parts that will one day be a AR15.
I'm frowning at you right now. FROOOOOOOOOWN. Seriously, That rifle is a shitpile. Either avoid it like the plauge, or prepare to spend a lot of money making a decent rifle out of it - Honestly, the best way to improve the AR-15/M-16 pattern rifles is to take off the front sight, then take that, and put a rifle that isn't a heaping pile of shit under it. Failing that, the making a good rifle of it is going to be expensive. Bare minimum, you're looking completely replacing the Direct Gas impingement with a short stroke piston, and fuck off the pissweak anemic little spring loaded ejector for something a little(or better, a lot) more reliable. I don't know how much you can do about the chamber(of tortures) which just so happens to be roughly the shape of an inbred hillbilly's arsehole that someone attacked with a star-shaped rubber cock, but you can replace the shitty locking lugs relatively easily.
Don't worry, you'll come around to my point of view after the first 50-100 rounds or so, plus maybe detail strip and clean.
Come to me, little ones, let me teach you many things.
Fear of even touching a gun, firing one, or even knowing proper gun safety is very bad. I believe that everyone should handle a gun and fire one at some point in their lives. Ignorance of firearms is dangerous.
Andrew, do you also think everybody should learn how to handle a broad-sword, morning star, crossbow, switchblade, naginata, and grenade launcher?
It is not ignorance of firearms that is dangerous, it is disrespect of firearms. People don't accidentally injure or kill themselves or others with firearms because they don't know how they work. It's that they're doing stupid shit with them regardless of whether they know how they work or not.
I have respect for guns. I don't know how they work. I have no desire or reason to know. I have no desire to own or fire one, and if I had such a desire because I thought I was in circumstances where I needed to, I'd get the fuck out of there ASAP. If I found a gun on the sidewalk, I would simply take the safety precautions anyone with a brain should be able to figure out: Hold it in a tight grip (as in not to drop it), keep your finger off the trigger, and keep it pointed to the ground or at least away from people until you can deposit it in a safe place and call the cops to take care of it. You tell me, is my ignorance of guns a danger here?
But you are required to go through an education course and be tested to drive a car legally.
And in many states you do not have to go through any training or education whatsoever to buy or handle a gun. Perplexing, I'd say.
Andrew, do you also think everybody should learn how to handle a broad-sword, morning star, crossbow, switchblade, naginata, and grenade launcher?
No, but I think we can all agree, that would be totally sweet.
You tell me, is my ignorance of guns a danger here?
Sure! Is it fully loaded, round in the chamber, or is it empty? Is the chamber empty but bullets in the magazine? What kind of safety does it have, and is the safety on? Can you safely drop the magazine and clear the chamber? If it's cocked, can you de-cock it safely?
They're all the basic questions you should be asking yourself, and all only requiring basic knowledge of firearms. But you can't answer any of them, because you lack knowledge. Therefore, you do not have enough information to proceed safely.
Let me give you an example. You see a gun on the ground, a Colt M1911 - one of the most popular handguns in America, and it's just sitting there, hammer back. You pick it up, you're holding it tight, and pointing it at the ground. So, are you aware that since you picked it up and are now holding it tight, there is a very good possibility you just took the safety off? And that we now have an inexperienced and knowledge-light person holding a charged firearm with the safety off? I'd definitely call that unsafe, but I doubt you would, since you lacked the basic knowledge or experience to assess the situation and consider how to proceed.
I'm not grousing on you, I'm just saying - yes, it is entirely possible that your ignorance of firearms can be a serious danger, even in situations you'd consider completely innocuous or safe.
Edit - I should note, I'm not pissing about and trying to scare you, it's just the simple fact - the Cold M1911 has what is called a "Grip Safety"(in addition to the manual safety) which is disengaged by picking up the gun, and holding it tight.
No, but I think we can all agree, that would be totally sweet.
I agree with that.
I would like to say that while there is testing required to getting a driver's license, in no way does a paper exam and a 15 minutes test drive indicate someone knows how to drive adequately. All it indicates is that they know how to drive for 15 minutes.
I do also want to say that I believe there should be more requirements for gun owners to take training courses for gun safety.
I do also want to say that I believe there should be more requirements for gun owners to take training courses for gun safety.
Yes, yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I'm a very big supporter of this, and I'd even say that mandatory re-certification after a period of time would be a good idea. Just owning a firearm and being a responsible gun owner are two different things - and the latter definitely involves knowing what the fuck is up.
As a side note, if you have any questions, I'm happy to try and answer them to the best of my ability! It's not often I get to use this knowledge set in such a manner, so I'd be happy to.
Andrew, do you also think everybody should learn how to handle a broad-sword, morning star, crossbow, switchblade, naginata, and grenade launcher?
No, but I think we can all agree, that would be totally sweet.
You tell me, is my ignorance of guns a danger here?
Sure! Is it fully loaded, round in the chamber, or is it empty? Is the chamber empty but bullets in the magazine? What kind of safety does it have, and is the safety on? Can you safely drop the magazine and clear the chamber? If it's cocked, can you de-cock it safely?
They're all the basic questions you should be asking yourself, and all only requiring basic knowledge of firearms. But you can't answer any of them, because you lack knowledge. Therefore, you do not have enough information to proceed safely.
Let me give you an example. You see a gun on the ground, a Colt M1911 - one of the most popular handguns in America, and it's just sitting there, hammer back. You pick it up, you're holding it tight, and pointing it at the ground. So, are you aware that since you picked it up and are now holding it tight, there is a very good possibility you just took the safety off? And that we now have an inexperienced and knowledge-light person holding a charged firearm with the safety off? I'd definitely call that unsafe, but I doubt you would, since you lacked the basic knowledge or experience to assess the situation and consider how to proceed.
I'm not grousing on you, I'm just saying - yes, it is entirely possible that your ignorance of firearms can be a serious danger, even in situations you'd consider completely innocuous or safe.
If it was a gun with the hammer back, I wouldn't even touch it! Also: Why the fuck do I need to know the status of the magazine or even the freaking chamber when I don't plan to fire it, and the only thing I'm trying to do with the gun is put it into a controlled position so that someone with more experience (e.g. a police officer) can do something better with it. Note that I'm doing this while pointing the gun at into the direction where it will do the least harm even if there is a round in the chamber and it should go off: the ground.
Apparently what you want me to do is leave the gun lying on the ground so the next village idiot who passes by can pick it up and do whatever he wants with it instead...
Edit - I should note, I'm not pissing about and trying to scare you, it's just the simple fact - the Cold M1911 has what is called a "Grip Safety"(in addition to the manual safety) which is disengaged by picking up the gun, and holding it tight.
I'm just saying that gripping it tight as in not to drop it and thus accidentally discharging it is a better course of action because the vast majority of guns do not have a grip safety feature, do they now?
Here's the shit I'm talking about: In 2008, an 8-year-old boy was given an Uzi by his father at a gun show and told fire it at a pumpkin. The boy proceeded to accidentally shoot himself in the head. I'm sure the father, and the shooting instructor who stood by and watched the entire thing, know a ton of things about guns. How to handle them. How to engage and disengage all of their safeties. How to uncock a gun without firing it. And so on. But they didn't have any respect for the guns, and of course gave it to an EIGHT-YEAR-OLD without a second thought.
Hell, the boy probably knew a lot about guns too, considering his father had let him shoot a few already before. Didn't prevent him from doing something stupid like shooting an UZI though. Of course the boy didn't really have any fault. That lies entirely with the fucking idiotic father and the shooting instructor giving him a gun!
Fear is something good. Fear keeps you from doing stupid things. Fear is a necessary ingredient for respect. However, knowledge vanquishes fear, and in this case the knowledge of the instructor, the father, and even the son, removed all the fear of guns they had, and this is the end result. But of course, who could have known this would happen. It was only a small gun...
If it was a revolver with the hammer back, I wouldn't even touch it!
Ah, righto. Probably the best idea for you with ANY firearm in that situation, really. Just don't touch it.
I'm just saying that gripping it tight as in not to drop it and thus accidentally discharging it is a better course of action because the vast majority of guns do not have a grip safety feature, do they now?
No, Don't touch the damned thing. First - Many firearms have grip safeties, however, if any particular gun does or doesn't, that's irrelevant if you don't know enough to spot if it has one. Second - despite what you see in the movies, it's pretty uncommon for a gun to go off just by being dropped. Practically every single firearm - particularly pistols - built since the late sixties has a mechanism to prevent the hammer falling (in other words, the gun firing) unless the trigger is properly pulled, and they were adding them before that. In other words, while you damned well better not just go dropping firearms around like it's nothing, a gun firing just because it's dropped is generally just a movie myth.
And don't pull that smug "Do they now?" horseshit with me. You're not big or clever, and when you put it in the same sentence as implying that a dropped gun will most likely discharge, it doesn't win you points, it just makes me giggle at you. Try learning something before you pull that shit again.
Also: Why the fuck do I need to know the status of the magazine or even the freaking chamber when I don't plan to fire it, and the only thing I'm trying to do with the gun is put it into a controlled position so that someone with more experience (e.g. a police officer) can do something better with it. Note that I'm doing this while pointing the gun at into the direction where it will do the least harm even if there is a round in the chamber and it should go off: the ground.
Very simple - You said, I quote,
If I found a gun on the sidewalk, I would simply take the safety precautions anyone with a brain should be able to figure out: Hold it in a tight grip (as in not to drop it), keep your finger off the trigger, and keep it pointed to the ground or at least away from people until you can deposit it in a safe place and call the cops to take care of it.
So, basically, You are saying you're going to pick up a firearm, when you have NO knowledge of how to assess the condition of it or make it as safe as you possibly can, and presumably unsupervised, and assume that's safe just because you're pointing it at the ground? So, What about Ricochets? Some bloke doesn't see what you're holding, and bumps into you, you trip and fall with a gun you have NO fucking idea about the condition of in your hand, holding real tight? Random Cop walks around the corner, and sees you standing there, looking slightly stressed, holding a gun at low ready?
Now I am grousing on you, because you're being a cock.
This isn't an argument you can win, because there is no compromise regarding gun safety - as I've heard over and over again, Compromises mean casualties - and you don't have the know-how to argue your point even if there was. Arguing for popularity points like this shit here
Apparently what you want me to do is leave the gun lying on the ground so the next village idiot who passes by can pick it up and do whatever he wants with it instead...
does nothing but make you look like a fool, who still doesn't have a damned clue what he's on about. Of course that's not what I would advise you to do, because that's ludicrously and obviously fucking stupid.
You know what you should do right now, if you see a gun just sitting there, unattended? Leave it the fuck alone, call the cops, and keep anyone else away from it. That's it. You don't need to pull any "I'm a responsible citizen I'mma make this here bang-stick all safe by holding it herpa durrr" shit, because you lack the knowledge to assess the situation and proceed safely. Just don't fucking touch it, don't let anyone else touch it, and call the cops, end of story.
I'm absolutely serious. You simply do not have any clue what you're doing, and it's not safe for you to interact with firearms unsupervised considering your complete lack of knowledge and experience - watching action movies doesn't count as experience or a reliable source of knowledge - and that's that.
Here's the shit I'm talking about: In 2008, an 8-year-old boy was given an Uzi by his father at a gun show and told fire it at a pumpkin. The boy proceeded to accidentally shoot himself in the head. I'm sure the father, and the shooting instructor who stood by and watched the entire thing, know a ton of things about guns. How to handle them. How to engage and disengage all of their safeties. How to uncock a gun without firing it. And so on. But they didn't have any respect for the guns, and of course gave it to an EIGHT-YEAR-OLD without a second thought.
Congratulations, someone did something stupid. Your point is proven! Oh no, wait, it isn't, because they did something really stupid, by not properly supervising the child with the firearm, as well as being so foolish as to hand a fully cocked and loaded automatic firearm to someone who was inexperienced and unfamiliar with that particular weapon, let alone someone who couldn't handle the thing, and let alone a bloody eight year old.
No matter how much they knew, They behaved in a stupid manner, broke at least Five of the seven basic gun safety rules, and that's why it occurred. Remember what I said a moment ago, compromises mean casualties? All you've done is drop a perfect example into my lap, thank you.
Fear is something good. Fear keeps you from doing stupid things. Fear is a necessary ingredient for respect. However, knowledge vanquishes fear, and in this case the knowledge of the instructor, the father, and even the son, removed all the fear of guns they had, and this is the end result. But of course, who could have known this would happen. It was only a small gun...
That is officially the stupidest fucking thing I have heard for a long, long time. Basically, you're trying to argue that knowledge beats fear, and therefore, people who are knowledgeable about guns are more likely to do fatally stupid things like this?
I'm sorry, No, That's fucking moronic. It isn't knowledge or lack of fear that caused this, it was extraordinarily poor judgement, and ignoring the basic rules of Gun safety. All the knowledge in the world isn't going to save you from shit, if you ignore that knowlege and behave in a stupid manner anyway.
Also - I'd advise you to stop taking a fucking tone with me. It's not getting you anything but a tone of your own right back, and you're still fucking wrong, no matter how fucking narky you get about it.
If it was a revolver with the hammer back, I wouldn't even touch it!
Ah, righto. Probably the best idea for you with ANY firearm in that situation, really. Just don't touch it.
And I won't if I don't have to, but that entirely depends on the situation, doesn't it? The situation we're talking about is already presumed that I have to. We're talking about a gun lying in the street. I might not have my phone on me, or something else might be the case, and I think it is simply a better idea to take the gun off the street, with all possible safety measures I can think of, rather than leaving it there so a random child can toy with it, or some thug comes along and thinks "hey, free gun not registered in my name, fuck yeah!"
No, Don't touch the damned thing. First - Many firearms have grip safeties, however, if any particular gun does or doesn't, that's irrelevant if you don't know enough to spot if it has one. Second - despite what you see in the movies, it's pretty uncommon for a gun to go off just by being dropped. Practically every single firearm - particularly pistols - built since the late sixties has a mechanism to prevent the hammer falling (in other words, the gun firing) unless the trigger is properly pulled, and they were adding them before that. In other words, while you damned well better not just go dropping firearms around like it's nothing, a gun firing just because it's dropped is generally just a movie myth.
But apparently by your logic, simply picking up the gun without ever touching the trigger, does make it go off much more easily than it being dropped.
Also: Why the fuck do I need to know the status of the magazine or even the freaking chamber when I don't plan to fire it, and the only thing I'm trying to do with the gun is put it into a controlled position so that someone with more experience (e.g. a police officer) can do something better with it. Note that I'm doing this while pointing the gun at into the direction where it will do the least harm even if there is a round in the chamber and it should go off: the ground.
Very simple - You said, I quote,
If I found a gun on the sidewalk, I would simply take the safety precautions anyone with a brain should be able to figure out: Hold it in a tight grip (as in not to drop it), keep your finger off the trigger, and keep it pointed to the ground or at least away from people until you can deposit it in a safe place and call the cops to take care of it.
So, basically, You are saying you're going to pick up a firearm, when you have NO knowledge of how to assess the condition of it or make it as safe as you possibly can, and presumably unsupervised, and assume that's safe just because you're pointing it at the ground? So, What about Ricochets? Some bloke doesn't see what you're holding, and bumps into you, you trip and fall with a gun you have NO fucking idea about the condition of in your hand, holding real tight? Random Cop walks around the corner, and sees you standing there, looking slightly stressed, holding a gun at low ready?
Of course, I would never come to the idea of telling anybody else around, that there is a fucking gun on the ground and that they should be careful...
Now I am grousing on you, because you're being a cock.
You're the far bigger asshole in this conversation, as far as I can tell.
This isn't an argument you can win, because there is no compromise regarding gun safety - as I've heard over and over again, Compromises mean casualties - and you don't have the know-how to argue your point even if there was. Arguing for popularity points like this shit here
Apparently what you want me to do is leave the gun lying on the ground so the next village idiot who passes by can pick it up and do whatever he wants with it instead...
does nothing but make you look like a fool, who still doesn't have a damned clue what he's on about. Of course that's not what I would advise you to do, because that's ludicrously and obviously fucking stupid.
You know what you should do right now, if you see a gun just sitting there, unattended? Leave it the fuck alone, call the cops, and keep anyone else away from it. That's it. You don't need to pull any "I'm a responsible citizen I'mma make this here bang-stick all safe by holding it herpa durrr" shit, because you lack the knowledge to assess the situation and proceed safely. Just don't fucking touch it, don't let anyone else touch it, and call the cops, end of story.
I'm absolutely serious. You simply do not have any clue what you're doing, and it's not safe for you to interact with firearms unsupervised considering your complete lack of knowledge and experience - watching action movies doesn't count as experience or a reliable source of knowledge - and that's that.
Man, I really wish I could live in magical christmas land like you do. As said, I wouldn't touch it if I didn't think I had to, and I have much more trust in myself to do the right thing than anybody else. Even if the next guy has knowledge of firearms, that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to give the gun to the cops. He could just keep it without telling anybody about it. Also, you are presuming that I even have the capabilities of calling the cops, which I might not have.
No, I don't have deep knowledge about gun safety, and I readily admit that. I never pretended anything else. But you are presuming that everybody else has and a thousand other things, such as me being capable of calling the cops on the spot, nobody else attempting to take the gun while I call the cops, etc.
Here's the shit I'm talking about: In 2008, an 8-year-old boy was given an Uzi by his father at a gun show and told fire it at a pumpkin. The boy proceeded to accidentally shoot himself in the head. I'm sure the father, and the shooting instructor who stood by and watched the entire thing, know a ton of things about guns. How to handle them. How to engage and disengage all of their safeties. How to uncock a gun without firing it. And so on. But they didn't have any respect for the guns, and of course gave it to an EIGHT-YEAR-OLD without a second thought.
Congratulations, someone did something stupid. Your point is proven! Oh no, wait, it isn't, because they did something really stupid, by not properly supervising the child with the firearm, as well as being so foolish as to hand a fully cocked and loaded automatic firearm to someone who was inexperienced and unfamiliar with that particular weapon, let alone someone who couldn't handle the thing, and let alone a bloody eight year old.
No matter how much they knew, They behaved in a stupid manner, broke at least Five of the seven basic gun safety rules, and that's why it occurred. Remember what I said a moment ago, compromises mean casualties? All you've done is drop a perfect example into my lap, thank you.
Apparently you simply didn't get the point. You and a couple of other people like Andrew in this thread proclaimed that knowledge about guns and gun safety was the key. This is false. What is key is respect of guns as a weapon capable of killing people. I'm sure the father and the fucking gun instructor knew all about those gun safety rules, but they didn't act on it because they didn't respect the guns anymore.
I also said that knowledge of guns might decrease the respect for guns as the fear is gone, but I definitely did not say that this is always the case or a rule of thumb. It's the difference between "can" and "will". However, in this case, I think I do have a point about that. I don't think anybody without the knowledge about guns those guys had (except that they are used to make things dead) would have handed an 8-year-old a fucking Uzi.
Fear is something good. Fear keeps you from doing stupid things. Fear is a necessary ingredient for respect. However, knowledge vanquishes fear, and in this case the knowledge of the instructor, the father, and even the son, removed all the fear of guns they had, and this is the end result. But of course, who could have known this would happen. It was only a small gun...
That is officially the stupidest fucking thing I have heard for a long, long time. Basically, you're trying to argue that knowledge beats fear, and therefore, people who are knowledgeable about guns are more likely to do fatally stupid things like this?
Wrong. I said no such thing. What I said is that simply because someone possesses knowledge about gun safety, doesn't mean that they are going to act upon it, which is essentially the thing you guys are saying. You are equating having knowledge of guns with being responsible and trustworthy around guns, and that is simply an unwarranted leap in logic.
I'm sorry, No, That's fucking moronic. It isn't knowledge or lack of fear that caused this, it was extraordinarily poor judgement, and ignoring the basic rules of Gun safety. All the knowledge in the world isn't going to save you from shit, if you ignore that knowlege and behave in a stupid manner anyway.
Exactly. Now we're getting somewhere.
Also - I'd advise you to stop taking a fucking tone with me. It's not getting you anything but a tone of your own right back, and you're still fucking wrong, no matter how fucking narky you get about it.
The only one taking a tone here is you with your endless condescension, presumption, and insults.
So I take it I'm the only one on the forum that actually owns any firearms.
Sold mine before I left for England - nobody I knew was both licensed and able to store them long term.
And I won't if I don't have to, but that entirely depends on the situation, doesn't it? The situation we're talking about is already presumed that I have to. We're talking about a gun lying in the street. I might not have my phone on me, or something else might be the case, and I think it is simply a better idea to take the gun off the street, with all possible safety measures I can think of, rather than leaving it there so a random child can toy with it, or some thug comes along and thinks "hey, free gun not registered in my name, fuck yeah!"
No it doesn't. Don't touch it, and if you don't have your phone(why are you not carrying your phone? God knows.) get someone else to call the cops. Just stay there and make sure nobody fucks with it. That does not really involve picking the fucking thing up, because "All possible safety measures I can think of" in your case, should be "Don't touch it, because you don't know what you're doing."
Very simple, really.
But apparently by your logic, simply picking up the gun without ever touching the trigger, does make it go off much more easily than it being dropped.
Yes, because now you have someone handling it. Of course a gun being handled is more likely to go off than one that's just sitting there, because someone is handling it. Guess what? A car that someone is driving is more likely to get in an accident than one sitting in the driveway, too. And I never said what you're implying, and and never really implied it.
I repeat - This is not an argument you can win, no matter how clever you think your arguments are, because you're flat out wrong. And Yes, I do realize that by arguing back I'm simply making you cling even more tightly to your uninformed and incorrect ideas, but hey, at least I'm trying to make you a little more informed.
Of course, I would never come to the idea of telling anybody else around, that there is a fucking gun on the ground and that they should be careful...
So, what about your objection that you don't have your phone? Are we assuming that literally nobody around you has a phone? And are we assuming that your voice carries for miles and miles, and everybody around you can hear you perfectly? Also, make up your mind. First you called the cops because you found a gun, then you can't get a hold of the cops, and now you're telling people around you there is a gun, but can or maybe can't get the cops? Don't be fucking silly. Assuming you're anywhere where there would be other people in greater numbers than two, including yourself, someone will probably have a phone, and I think I recall that you're a city dweller, so there will be people around, someone will have a phone, and the cops won't be far away.
And considering that you stated you don't know and have no desire to know about firearms, and you somehow assume that just picking the fucking thing up and pointing it at the ground is the safest thing to do instead of just leaving it the fuck alone and getting someone who DOES know what they're doing by some means, well, I'm not really able to assume that you're going to act sensibly or intelligently when a firearm is involved. So far, all you're doing is trying to argue the toss, when literally nothing you could say would make you right, no clever arguments you can make, and nothing that could help you win, because you thought you were right, and refuse to consider you might not be.
Man, I really wish I could live in magical christmas land like you do. As said, I wouldn't touch it if I didn't think I had to, and I have much more trust in myself to do the right thing than anybody else. Even if the next guy has knowledge of firearms, that doesn't necessarily mean he's going to give the gun to the cops. He could just keep it without telling anybody about it. Also, you are presuming that I even have the capabilities of calling the cops, which I might not have.
No, I don't have deep knowledge about gun safety, and I readily admit that. I never pretended anything else. But you are presuming that everybody else has and a thousand other things, such as me being capable of calling the cops on the spot, nobody else attempting to take the gun while I call the cops, etc.
Oh, here, let me repeat it again - You shouldn't think you have to, because you don't, so don't fucking touch it, stupid. You're saying "Oh, I have to trust in myself to do the right thing" while arguing why you're right in doing exactly the wrong fucking thing.
And did I say hand it to the next guy? Or, tell someone else to deal with it? No, I'm pretty sure - at least, as sure as I can be when I can scroll up and read exactly what I wrote - which was
Just don't fucking touch it, don't let anyone else touch it, and call the cops, end of story.
Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the last six times I told you.
The problem is you're pretending to have ANY knowledge about firearms or firearm safety. You don't, that's that. I'm assuming you're a competent human being, and wouldn't just stand around with your jaw open - let's face it, if you came across a gun in the street, likely nobody else has seen or noticed it. So, therefore, unlikely anyone will try to take it. If someone does try to take it, then yell, shout, scream, try not to let them, whatever, I don't know about your capabilities in that department. IF POSSIBLE then leave it the fuck alone and don't let it out of your sight. If there is literally no other possible course of action short of eating the fucking thing, then pick the gun up very carefully, and don't worry about all this holding it tightly and pointing it at the ground horseshit you've talked yourself into, just keep all your bits away from the trigger and very carefully put it somewhere safe, away from people, whatever you have to do, and then stay with it till the cops come(assuming you've got a hold of them, but you're a big boy, I'm sure you can figure out a way). Put it in a trash bin and sit on the lid while you wait for the cops, I don't fucking know, whatever is best in the convoluted fantasy scenario you try and construct to make your plan of action justifiable.
Apparently you simply didn't get the point. You and a couple of other people like Andrew in this thread proclaimed that knowledge about guns and gun safety was the key. This is false. What is key is respect of guns as a weapon capable of killing people. I'm sure the father and the fucking gun instructor knew all about those gun safety rules, but they didn't act on it because they didn't respect the guns anymore.
I can't speak or argue for anyone else. But do me a favor, and quote where I said that. Not any "implied" bullshit, but tell me where - as you have directly stated I did - said that.
Oh wait, let me save you the trouble, I didn't. Though, I will in a bit, if you'll hang on a moment.
Guess what? You're wrong again. The knowledge of gun safety and following the rules of gun safety are extremely important, because knowing a gun can kill people and "respecting" that fact doesn't actually tell you anything about how to avoid, y'know, killing people with your negligence(and bullets). And I put respecting inside inverted commas there, because I'd consider part of respecting that fact is knowing the rules of Gun safety - after all, if you don't know how to be safe with something, how can you honestly say you respect the dangers of it?
The point is not what you think it is - You're simply fucking wrong. When handling firearms in ANY capacity, Knowledge of and compliance with the rules of gun safety are ABSOLUTELY vital. That's exactly why the Negligent death you cited occurred - because these basic rules were not followed. The problem, unlike what you've said, isn't their lack of fear or respect, it isn't that they know the rules, it's that they Didn't follow the rules, no matter if they knew them or not, and thus, a child died.
Wrong. I said no such thing. What I said is that simply because someone possesses knowledge about gun safety, doesn't mean that they are going to act upon it, which is essentially the thing you guys are saying. You are equating having knowledge of guns with being responsible and trustworthy around guns, and that is simply an unwarranted leap in logic.
No, I'm fucking not, and I'm not equating that at all, outside of your piss-poor failure to successfully argue your indefensible case. I'm saying that having basic knowledge of guns and gun safety(along with following those rules always) are exactly what is involved in being responsible around guns, along with not behaving like an idiot, and using your best judgement under the advisement of those rules and that knowledge. Trustworthy is a different issue - Following those rules until they are second nature, learning more about firearms, and gaining experience with firearms makes one trustworthy around firearms.
Don't like it? Too bad.
Exactly. Now we're getting somewhere.
Are you still convince you're correct? Then we're not.
The only one taking a tone here is you with your endless condescension, presumption, and insults.
No, sunshine, you asked the question which amounts to "I know nothing about guns, so my plan is to handle the gun. How could that possibly be unsafe?" and then I told you, and even specifically said I wasn't scolding you - by the way, that's what grousing on you means, in that context - and was simply answering your question you asked, and while you might not have figured it out, with the intention of correcting your bad ideas, and trying to inform you how to better deal with the situation safely.
Now, let's have a look at your response.
Also: Why the fuck do I need to know the status of the magazine or even the freaking chamber when I don't plan to fire it, and the only thing I'm trying to do with the gun is put it into a controlled position so that someone with more experience (e.g. a police officer) can do something better with it. Note that I'm doing this while pointing the gun at into the direction where it will do the least harm even if there is a round in the chamber and it should go off: the ground.
Apparently what you want me to do is leave the gun lying on the ground so the next village idiot who passes by can pick it up and do whatever he wants with it instead...
Wonderful! Apparently, that is you not being a cock. I'd guess you'd also claim it's not attempting to insult me by trying to suggest that I wanted you to do literally the stupidest thing you could think of short of spinning around and firing at random? Hmm, I wonder what comes next?
I'm just saying that gripping it tight as in not to drop it and thus accidentally discharging it is a better course of action because the vast majority of guns do not have a grip safety feature, do they now?
Oh, that's not passive agressive at all, is it now? Or condescending in the slightest, isn't it?
You wanna start with the fucking insults and bullshit, then be prepared when you cop it back sweet. Don't like it? Then keep a civil tongue and don't fucking kick it off, princess.
But you are required to go through an education course and be tested to drive a car legally.
And in many states you do not have to go through any training or education whatsoever to buy or handle a gun. Perplexing, I'd say.
It's not perplexing. I'm sure many have argued for mandatory training for using a handgun if they were to own/purchase a gun, however I'm pretty sure that it was challenged being unconstitutional against the 2nd amendment. This is a matter that the government left to each state's decision because it can probably never be upheld on a federal level.
Jesus H. Fucking Christ Churba. Just go fuck yourself. Okay?
I said I won't touch it if I don't have to. However, there are situations that it might occur that the safest way to take care of a gun, even if you are an untrained person, is to simply keep it out of other people's hands because you have no clue what those other people will do. A gun lying in the street is such an example in my opinion, because Cthulhu knows who could come along and just take the damn thing with them.
I also did not contradict myself. I said I would call the cops at the earliest opportunity. However, the opportunity may not immediately present. You on the other hand bring fucking tautologies as arguments like this one:
You shouldn't think you have to [touch the gun], because you don't, so don't fucking touch it, stupid.
The most hilarious thing about this that despite your fucking hizzy fit you are throwing over it, you are actually advising me to do the exact same thing I've been saying I would do:
If there is literally no other possible course of action short of eating the fucking thing, then pick the gun up very carefully, and don't worry about all this holding it tightly and pointing it at the ground horseshit you've talked yourself into, just keep all your bits away from the trigger and very carefully put it somewhere safe, away from people, whatever you have to do, and then stay with it till the cops come
The only thing you've basically done in this thread is expose yourself as a condescending asshole. Nothing else!
The only thing you've basically done in this thread is expose yourself as a condescending asshole. Nothing else!
You're Wrong yet again. I exposed myself as a a whole rainbow spectrum of arseholes YEARS ago, so it looks like gun safety isn't the only area where you're real slow on the uptake. But In this case, I'm also a condescending asshole who happens to be right.
And don't forget, you adorably clueless little one, that you got passive aggressive and condescending first
Jesus H. Fucking Christ Churba. Just go fuck yourself. Okay?
Kiss kiss, Sweetheart. I'll remember you're a little fucking wuss who can't take what he puts out. Like I said, you can't take it, don't fucking start it, dumbass. Don't start nothing, won't be nothing, mate.
The most hilarious thing about this that despite your fucking hizzy fit you are throwing over it, you are actually advising me to do the exact same thing I've been saying I would do:
Incorrect. You said "If It happens, I'd pick it up and make it safe" whereas I'm saying "Don't do that except if it is literally the only option available to you whatsoever" for the very reason that since it is - in your case - rather less safe than not doing so, you should only do so if absolutely and totally necessary.
You, my dear child, seem to lack the ability to distinguish between "Normal procedure" and "Absolute last resort", it's adorable, but you should still correct that fault.
You are wrong Churba. It's not that I called it "normal procedure" but the best option in the situation at hand. If there is a better option, such as one that doesn't involve touching the gun at all, I will of course take that one!
Also, you are the fucking wuss here, because you are incapable of taking even the slightest phrase you don't like without starting an entire hizzy fit over it, regardless of whether there was any intention behind that phrase or not.
Also, you are the fucking wuss here, because you are incapable of taking even the slightest phrase you don't like without starting an entire hizzy fit over it, regardless of whether there was any intention behind that phrase or not.
Mate, you seem to have it wrong. I imagine you think I've got steam pouring from my ears and are shouting each word shrilly as I type - But really, nope. You're getting calm-but-insulting-you-for-acting-a-fool. Were this vocal, it'd be pretty close to a regular conversational tone, though obviously, with quite a bit of disdain. You're not nearly annoying enough to get the reaction I think you're imagining, princess.
Edit - Can someone tell me if this is an American thing? Of the people who assume that sort of thing that I've encountered, they have an extreme tendancy to be American, to the point of being almost exclusively being American. Nothing against anyone who is American, but it just seems it might be an interesting cultural quirk.
You are wrong Churba. It's not that I called it "normal procedure" but the best option in the situation at hand. If there is a better option, such as one that doesn't involve touching the gun at all, I will of course take that one!
Except that's not the best option for the situation at hand, the best option is don't touch the goddamn thing. And I remind you, again, that you said
If I found a gun on the sidewalk, I would simply take the safety precautions anyone with a brain should be able to figure out: Hold it in a tight grip (as in not to drop it), keep your finger off the trigger, and keep it pointed to the ground or at least away from people until you can deposit it in a safe place and call the cops to take care of it.
Which should be you last resort, not your first. And it ignores the idea you'll just find a gun on the sidewalk as ludicrously unlikely - more likely, if it's just there on the sidewalk, someone else is already dealing with it. If you find it just sitting there, it's going to be already out of the way, or else someone else would probably have seen it first, with sidewalks usually being pretty high traffic.
Comments
I really question your intelligence. I have no further desire to continue conversations with you.
Don't worry, you'll come around to my point of view after the first 50-100 rounds or so, plus maybe detail strip and clean.
Come to me, little ones, let me teach you many things. I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.
It is not ignorance of firearms that is dangerous, it is disrespect of firearms. People don't accidentally injure or kill themselves or others with firearms because they don't know how they work. It's that they're doing stupid shit with them regardless of whether they know how they work or not.
I have respect for guns. I don't know how they work. I have no desire or reason to know. I have no desire to own or fire one, and if I had such a desire because I thought I was in circumstances where I needed to, I'd get the fuck out of there ASAP. If I found a gun on the sidewalk, I would simply take the safety precautions anyone with a brain should be able to figure out: Hold it in a tight grip (as in not to drop it), keep your finger off the trigger, and keep it pointed to the ground or at least away from people until you can deposit it in a safe place and call the cops to take care of it. You tell me, is my ignorance of guns a danger here?
And in many states you do not have to go through any training or education whatsoever to buy or handle a gun. Perplexing, I'd say.
They're all the basic questions you should be asking yourself, and all only requiring basic knowledge of firearms. But you can't answer any of them, because you lack knowledge. Therefore, you do not have enough information to proceed safely.
Let me give you an example. You see a gun on the ground, a Colt M1911 - one of the most popular handguns in America, and it's just sitting there, hammer back. You pick it up, you're holding it tight, and pointing it at the ground. So, are you aware that since you picked it up and are now holding it tight, there is a very good possibility you just took the safety off? And that we now have an inexperienced and knowledge-light person holding a charged firearm with the safety off?
I'd definitely call that unsafe, but I doubt you would, since you lacked the basic knowledge or experience to assess the situation and consider how to proceed.
I'm not grousing on you, I'm just saying - yes, it is entirely possible that your ignorance of firearms can be a serious danger, even in situations you'd consider completely innocuous or safe.
Edit - I should note, I'm not pissing about and trying to scare you, it's just the simple fact - the Cold M1911 has what is called a "Grip Safety"(in addition to the manual safety) which is disengaged by picking up the gun, and holding it tight.
I would like to say that while there is testing required to getting a driver's license, in no way does a paper exam and a 15 minutes test drive indicate someone knows how to drive adequately. All it indicates is that they know how to drive for 15 minutes.
I do also want to say that I believe there should be more requirements for gun owners to take training courses for gun safety.
As a side note, if you have any questions, I'm happy to try and answer them to the best of my ability! It's not often I get to use this knowledge set in such a manner, so I'd be happy to.
Also: Why the fuck do I need to know the status of the magazine or even the freaking chamber when I don't plan to fire it, and the only thing I'm trying to do with the gun is put it into a controlled position so that someone with more experience (e.g. a police officer) can do something better with it. Note that I'm doing this while pointing the gun at into the direction where it will do the least harm even if there is a round in the chamber and it should go off: the ground.
Apparently what you want me to do is leave the gun lying on the ground so the next village idiot who passes by can pick it up and do whatever he wants with it instead... I'm just saying that gripping it tight as in not to drop it and thus accidentally discharging it is a better course of action because the vast majority of guns do not have a grip safety feature, do they now?
Hell, the boy probably knew a lot about guns too, considering his father had let him shoot a few already before. Didn't prevent him from doing something stupid like shooting an UZI though. Of course the boy didn't really have any fault. That lies entirely with the fucking idiotic father and the shooting instructor giving him a gun!
Fear is something good. Fear keeps you from doing stupid things. Fear is a necessary ingredient for respect. However, knowledge vanquishes fear, and in this case the knowledge of the instructor, the father, and even the son, removed all the fear of guns they had, and this is the end result. But of course, who could have known this would happen. It was only a small gun...
In other words, while you damned well better not just go dropping firearms around like it's nothing, a gun firing just because it's dropped is generally just a movie myth.
And don't pull that smug "Do they now?" horseshit with me. You're not big or clever, and when you put it in the same sentence as implying that a dropped gun will most likely discharge, it doesn't win you points, it just makes me giggle at you. Try learning something before you pull that shit again. Very simple - You said, I quote, So, basically, You are saying you're going to pick up a firearm, when you have NO knowledge of how to assess the condition of it or make it as safe as you possibly can, and presumably unsupervised, and assume that's safe just because you're pointing it at the ground? So, What about Ricochets? Some bloke doesn't see what you're holding, and bumps into you, you trip and fall with a gun you have NO fucking idea about the condition of in your hand, holding real tight? Random Cop walks around the corner, and sees you standing there, looking slightly stressed, holding a gun at low ready?
Now I am grousing on you, because you're being a cock.
This isn't an argument you can win, because there is no compromise regarding gun safety - as I've heard over and over again, Compromises mean casualties - and you don't have the know-how to argue your point even if there was. Arguing for popularity points like this shit heredoes nothing but make you look like a fool, who still doesn't have a damned clue what he's on about. Of course that's not what I would advise you to do, because that's ludicrously and obviously fucking stupid.
You know what you should do right now, if you see a gun just sitting there, unattended? Leave it the fuck alone, call the cops, and keep anyone else away from it. That's it. You don't need to pull any "I'm a responsible citizen I'mma make this here bang-stick all safe by holding it herpa durrr" shit, because you lack the knowledge to assess the situation and proceed safely. Just don't fucking touch it, don't let anyone else touch it, and call the cops, end of story.
I'm absolutely serious. You simply do not have any clue what you're doing, and it's not safe for you to interact with firearms unsupervised considering your complete lack of knowledge and experience - watching action movies doesn't count as experience or a reliable source of knowledge - and that's that. Congratulations, someone did something stupid. Your point is proven! Oh no, wait, it isn't, because they did something really stupid, by not properly supervising the child with the firearm, as well as being so foolish as to hand a fully cocked and loaded automatic firearm to someone who was inexperienced and unfamiliar with that particular weapon, let alone someone who couldn't handle the thing, and let alone a bloody eight year old.
No matter how much they knew, They behaved in a stupid manner, broke at least Five of the seven basic gun safety rules, and that's why it occurred. Remember what I said a moment ago, compromises mean casualties? All you've done is drop a perfect example into my lap, thank you. That is officially the stupidest fucking thing I have heard for a long, long time.
Basically, you're trying to argue that knowledge beats fear, and therefore, people who are knowledgeable about guns are more likely to do fatally stupid things like this?
I'm sorry, No, That's fucking moronic. It isn't knowledge or lack of fear that caused this, it was extraordinarily poor judgement, and ignoring the basic rules of Gun safety. All the knowledge in the world isn't going to save you from shit, if you ignore that knowlege and behave in a stupid manner anyway.
Also - I'd advise you to stop taking a fucking tone with me. It's not getting you anything but a tone of your own right back, and you're still fucking wrong, no matter how fucking narky you get about it.
No, I don't have deep knowledge about gun safety, and I readily admit that. I never pretended anything else. But you are presuming that everybody else has and a thousand other things, such as me being capable of calling the cops on the spot, nobody else attempting to take the gun while I call the cops, etc. Apparently you simply didn't get the point. You and a couple of other people like Andrew in this thread proclaimed that knowledge about guns and gun safety was the key. This is false. What is key is respect of guns as a weapon capable of killing people. I'm sure the father and the fucking gun instructor knew all about those gun safety rules, but they didn't act on it because they didn't respect the guns anymore.
I also said that knowledge of guns might decrease the respect for guns as the fear is gone, but I definitely did not say that this is always the case or a rule of thumb. It's the difference between "can" and "will". However, in this case, I think I do have a point about that. I don't think anybody without the knowledge about guns those guys had (except that they are used to make things dead) would have handed an 8-year-old a fucking Uzi. Wrong. I said no such thing. What I said is that simply because someone possesses knowledge about gun safety, doesn't mean that they are going to act upon it, which is essentially the thing you guys are saying. You are equating having knowledge of guns with being responsible and trustworthy around guns, and that is simply an unwarranted leap in logic. Exactly. Now we're getting somewhere. The only one taking a tone here is you with your endless condescension, presumption, and insults.
UPDATE: Never mind, you fixed.
It's amusing/sad when this thread easily turned into this thread.
Very simple, really. Yes, because now you have someone handling it. Of course a gun being handled is more likely to go off than one that's just sitting there, because someone is handling it. Guess what? A car that someone is driving is more likely to get in an accident than one sitting in the driveway, too. And I never said what you're implying, and and never really implied it.
I repeat - This is not an argument you can win, no matter how clever you think your arguments are, because you're flat out wrong. And Yes, I do realize that by arguing back I'm simply making you cling even more tightly to your uninformed and incorrect ideas, but hey, at least I'm trying to make you a little more informed. So, what about your objection that you don't have your phone? Are we assuming that literally nobody around you has a phone? And are we assuming that your voice carries for miles and miles, and everybody around you can hear you perfectly? Also, make up your mind. First you called the cops because you found a gun, then you can't get a hold of the cops, and now you're telling people around you there is a gun, but can or maybe can't get the cops? Don't be fucking silly. Assuming you're anywhere where there would be other people in greater numbers than two, including yourself, someone will probably have a phone, and I think I recall that you're a city dweller, so there will be people around, someone will have a phone, and the cops won't be far away.
And considering that you stated you don't know and have no desire to know about firearms, and you somehow assume that just picking the fucking thing up and pointing it at the ground is the safest thing to do instead of just leaving it the fuck alone and getting someone who DOES know what they're doing by some means, well, I'm not really able to assume that you're going to act sensibly or intelligently when a firearm is involved.
So far, all you're doing is trying to argue the toss, when literally nothing you could say would make you right, no clever arguments you can make, and nothing that could help you win, because you thought you were right, and refuse to consider you might not be. Oh, here, let me repeat it again - You shouldn't think you have to, because you don't, so don't fucking touch it, stupid. You're saying "Oh, I have to trust in myself to do the right thing" while arguing why you're right in doing exactly the wrong fucking thing.
And did I say hand it to the next guy? Or, tell someone else to deal with it? No, I'm pretty sure - at least, as sure as I can be when I can scroll up and read exactly what I wrote - which was Now where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, the last six times I told you.
The problem is you're pretending to have ANY knowledge about firearms or firearm safety. You don't, that's that. I'm assuming you're a competent human being, and wouldn't just stand around with your jaw open - let's face it, if you came across a gun in the street, likely nobody else has seen or noticed it. So, therefore, unlikely anyone will try to take it. If someone does try to take it, then yell, shout, scream, try not to let them, whatever, I don't know about your capabilities in that department. IF POSSIBLE then leave it the fuck alone and don't let it out of your sight. If there is literally no other possible course of action short of eating the fucking thing, then pick the gun up very carefully, and don't worry about all this holding it tightly and pointing it at the ground horseshit you've talked yourself into, just keep all your bits away from the trigger and very carefully put it somewhere safe, away from people, whatever you have to do, and then stay with it till the cops come(assuming you've got a hold of them, but you're a big boy, I'm sure you can figure out a way). Put it in a trash bin and sit on the lid while you wait for the cops, I don't fucking know, whatever is best in the convoluted fantasy scenario you try and construct to make your plan of action justifiable. I can't speak or argue for anyone else. But do me a favor, and quote where I said that. Not any "implied" bullshit, but tell me where - as you have directly stated I did - said that.
Oh wait, let me save you the trouble, I didn't. Though, I will in a bit, if you'll hang on a moment.
Guess what? You're wrong again. The knowledge of gun safety and following the rules of gun safety are extremely important, because knowing a gun can kill people and "respecting" that fact doesn't actually tell you anything about how to avoid, y'know, killing people with your negligence(and bullets). And I put respecting inside inverted commas there, because I'd consider part of respecting that fact is knowing the rules of Gun safety - after all, if you don't know how to be safe with something, how can you honestly say you respect the dangers of it?
The point is not what you think it is - You're simply fucking wrong. When handling firearms in ANY capacity, Knowledge of and compliance with the rules of gun safety are ABSOLUTELY vital. That's exactly why the Negligent death you cited occurred - because these basic rules were not followed. The problem, unlike what you've said, isn't their lack of fear or respect, it isn't that they know the rules, it's that they Didn't follow the rules, no matter if they knew them or not, and thus, a child died. No, I'm fucking not, and I'm not equating that at all, outside of your piss-poor failure to successfully argue your indefensible case. I'm saying that having basic knowledge of guns and gun safety(along with following those rules always) are exactly what is involved in being responsible around guns, along with not behaving like an idiot, and using your best judgement under the advisement of those rules and that knowledge. Trustworthy is a different issue - Following those rules until they are second nature, learning more about firearms, and gaining experience with firearms makes one trustworthy around firearms.
Don't like it? Too bad. Are you still convince you're correct? Then we're not.
Now, let's have a look at your response. Wonderful! Apparently, that is you not being a cock. I'd guess you'd also claim it's not attempting to insult me by trying to suggest that I wanted you to do literally the stupidest thing you could think of short of spinning around and firing at random? Hmm, I wonder what comes next?Oh, that's not passive agressive at all, is it now? Or condescending in the slightest, isn't it?
You wanna start with the fucking insults and bullshit, then be prepared when you cop it back sweet. Don't like it? Then keep a civil tongue and don't fucking kick it off, princess.
I said I won't touch it if I don't have to. However, there are situations that it might occur that the safest way to take care of a gun, even if you are an untrained person, is to simply keep it out of other people's hands because you have no clue what those other people will do. A gun lying in the street is such an example in my opinion, because Cthulhu knows who could come along and just take the damn thing with them.
I also did not contradict myself. I said I would call the cops at the earliest opportunity. However, the opportunity may not immediately present. You on the other hand bring fucking tautologies as arguments like this one: The most hilarious thing about this that despite your fucking hizzy fit you are throwing over it, you are actually advising me to do the exact same thing I've been saying I would do:
The only thing you've basically done in this thread is expose yourself as a condescending asshole. Nothing else!
And don't forget, you adorably clueless little one, that you got passive aggressive and condescending first Kiss kiss, Sweetheart. I'll remember you're a little fucking wuss who can't take what he puts out. Like I said, you can't take it, don't fucking start it, dumbass. Don't start nothing, won't be nothing, mate. Incorrect. You said "If It happens, I'd pick it up and make it safe" whereas I'm saying "Don't do that except if it is literally the only option available to you whatsoever" for the very reason that since it is - in your case - rather less safe than not doing so, you should only do so if absolutely and totally necessary.
You, my dear child, seem to lack the ability to distinguish between "Normal procedure" and "Absolute last resort", it's adorable, but you should still correct that fault.
One to five are the essential concepts that everyone should have an understanding of.
Also, you are the fucking wuss here, because you are incapable of taking even the slightest phrase you don't like without starting an entire hizzy fit over it, regardless of whether there was any intention behind that phrase or not.
Edit - Can someone tell me if this is an American thing? Of the people who assume that sort of thing that I've encountered, they have an extreme tendancy to be American, to the point of being almost exclusively being American. Nothing against anyone who is American, but it just seems it might be an interesting cultural quirk. Except that's not the best option for the situation at hand, the best option is don't touch the goddamn thing. And I remind you, again, that you said Which should be you last resort, not your first. And it ignores the idea you'll just find a gun on the sidewalk as ludicrously unlikely - more likely, if it's just there on the sidewalk, someone else is already dealing with it. If you find it just sitting there, it's going to be already out of the way, or else someone else would probably have seen it first, with sidewalks usually being pretty high traffic.