Quick edit: does anyone have an issue with the font color? it seems too light or something, it's not pleasant although it could just be a weird thing with my screen.
I think it's a screen thing. On my IPS screen it looks great, and on my TN screen it's a bit faded.
Quick edit: does anyone have an issue with the font color? it seems too light or something, it's not pleasant although it could just be a weird thing with my screen.
IMO desktop layout has too much empty vertical space, particularly between posts. It's harder to read threads quickly now because I need to scroll more, and searching for the beginning of the next post is harder.
Additionally, the distinction between read and unread threads on the topic pages was much more obvious in the old theme.
I was going to complain about the desktop layout at half a screen (it's how I check on this site while at work), but then I squeezed the window down a bit more and forced what I think is the mobile version of the site and it looks waaaay better than it does else wise.
I think it's especially bright because the 'read' threads use to be greyed out (the entire bar not just the thread title), providing contrast. Now it's white on white on white with some grey, with smaller icons. There's more work for your eyeballs to do for something that used to take a fraction of the time.
1. Identify 'read' thread, skip 2. Locate thread of interest, with new post, click.
The darker theme has maximum contrast, meaning easiest readability.
Vanilla 1.0 actually let the user pick their theme if they were logged in. Vanilla 2.0 doesn't have that. If I make a forum, it would. Because why not?
I've been wondering what this theme reminds me of. It makes the forum look like SourceForge.
Sourceforge, along with thousands of other web sites all use https://getbootstrap.com/ as the foundation of their CSS. Some sites customize it so heavily you can't tell they are using it. However, if it isn't customized extensively, you can tell right away that it is a bootstrap site, such as this.
The previous theme this forum used was based on an earlier version of Boostrap. This one is based on Boostrap 3.
Huh, I always saw during the stand ups the front end guys mention bootstrap. I usually tuned it all out until it was my turn to talk about the apis I was writing. I never cared when it was something I worked with. I care now when it's something I play with. Funny how that works.
The FrostWorks site is based on bootstrap. As is the Trump Speech Generator, but I had NO idea how to use it, so I just edited the templates directly. How does one ever USE bootstrap?
That's one thing that took me a while to figure out when I started. The docs don't really tell you what to do if you don't know what to do to begin with. Here's how to use it in English.
Include the right CSS file in your page: <!-- Latest compiled and minified CSS --> <link rel="stylesheet" href="https://maxcdn.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.3.7/css/bootstrap.min.css" integrity="sha384-BVYiiSIFeK1dGmJRAkycuHAHRg32OmUcww7on3RYdg4Va+PmSTsz/K68vbdEjh4u" crossorigin="anonymous">
<!-- Latest compiled and minified JavaScript --> <script src="https://maxcdn.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.3.7/js/bootstrap.min.js" integrity="sha384-Tc5IQib027qvyjSMfHjOMaLkfuWVxZxUPnCJA7l2mCWNIpG9mGCD8wGNIcPD7Txa" crossorigin="anonymous"></script> These are served from a CDN, so don't worry about hotlinking. The theme stylesheet and JS are optional - just include them if you want some of the fancier stuff.
Then add some classes to your HTML tags, depending on how you want them to look. They're documented here. For example: <button class="btn btn-lg btn-primary"> will give you a button that looks nice, is larger than the standard size, and "primary" color (a shade of blue).
A good place to start are the container, row and col-* classes. They provide a skeleton for rows and columns that look pretty.
The templates do have some good boilerplate that you wouldn't necessarily think to include otherwise, so they're a good place to start and modify to suit your needs.
The new mobile site is the best thing about the update. What are your specific complaints?
Using an iPhone SE:
Almost no differentiation between threads with new comments and those without.
Have to hit the actual link to a thread instead of the box
Pagination at the bottom gives poor indication of how many pages. E.g. on the handegg thread, page 47 (currently next to last page), I see <<, First, 47, Last, and >>. How many pages are there? Do << and >> move you one page? Why are they outside First and Last then?
When you're on the last page of a thread, Last is gone, but >> is merely grayed out.
Black bar at the bottom is a stark contrast to the rest of the color scheme, and it's there on every page. And it doesn't load a new page, it just brings up a modal popup.
Scrolling up and down, a third of the screen space disappears and reappears between Safari's menu bars, the forum search (worse than useless), "Front Row Crew Forum" title element, and black bar at the bottom.
The first unread comment in a thread is partially covered up by the garbage at the top
My only complaint is that read and unread threads are no longer visually distinct, making it hard to quickly determine which conversations have new posts.
So, have we all just decided to settle for this objectively inferior design? That's a real pity. I've given it a week or whatever, and the home screen on mobile is still really annoying to use. It's very difficult for me to see which threads are updated, it doesn't say who was last to post, and the touch targets for the links to open the page are tiny. Among other issues.
Is there nothing anyone can do to make this better?
So, have we all just decided to settle for this objectively inferior design? That's a real pity. I've given it a week or whatever, and the home screen on mobile is still really annoying to use. It's very difficult for me to see which threads are updated, it doesn't say who was last to post, and the touch targets for the links to open the page are tiny. Among other issues.
Is there nothing anyone can do to make this better?
It's a lot harder to edit the mobile theme than the desktop one. Also, I don't use the mobile one.
Can you change the mobile version back to the old one? It's very painful to use.
While I don't use it, you are not the only one using it, and not everyone agrees with you. Seems to be a 50/50 split on opinions of the mobile site.
Also, you made a bad reputation for yourself complaining about every single change ever, so I'm inclined to value your opinion less than others. I'm working harder to escape Vanilla on a more permanent basis anyway, so just wait for me to launch all new things so you can complain about even more.
Well, cheers. Read a few posts higher up and you'll see someone else listing the same points and more.
Do you have no sense of usability in design changes? I don't want you to value my opinions because I am saying something, I want you to have the expertise not to inflict bad design on other users.
Just used the mobile site. Doesn't seem really significantly different to me. It is clear that neither option is perfect. They both have some significant problems.
The old one makes it easier to click on a thread because the entire box is a touch zone, but that makes it very hard to click on anything else in the box that isn't the title. That being said, I never had trouble clicking the titles of the new one. I had no need for the entire box to be a touch zone.
On the new one it is harder to tell if a thread has new stuff because the new marker isn't a different color.
On the old one the threads are bigger, so you can see less per page.
On the old one the pagination is a bunch of individual numbers that are a pain to use. On the new one, the pagination are nice big boxes which are easy to touch.
The old one has an annoying top menu bar of tiny text.
The new one has a modern hamburger side-menu.
The new one wastes space at the top by putting a large title.
The old one wastes space at the top with emptiness.
The new one has a convenient black bar at the bottom.
The fonts, colors and design of the new one is way more modern and easier on the eyes.
Both waste valuable space highlighting the useless information about views and comment counts that shouldn't even be there.
There is no clear winner. You will complain about the negatives of any option, since no option is perfect. I'm paying $150 a month of my own money for this. Therefore, I'm going to pick whatever I like better, and you're just all going to have to deal with it. I'll change it however you like if you pay me $150 a month.
On the new one it is harder to tell if a thread has new stuff because the new marker isn't a different color.
This is my primary concern, if this can be fixed I'm mostly okay with the changes. I can't imagine its that hard to fix. In fact, if it makes it easier I'll do the legwork of figuring out which style to change and experiment with different solutions.
I don't really find the bottom bar convenient as the design starts to impede on Safari's use of the bottom portion of the screen. Also I never use those controls in the first place. But it's not so egregious that I would need it gone or anything.
On the new one it is harder to tell if a thread has new stuff because the new marker isn't a different color.
This is my primary concern, if this can be fixed I'm mostly okay with the changes. I can't imagine its that hard to fix. In fact, if it makes it easier I'll do the legwork of figuring out which style to change and experiment with different solutions.
It's impossible to fix as long as the Vanilla is not self-hosted, There is no option in the admin to modify the CSS or HTML of the mobile template like there is for the desktop template.
The moral is that Vanilla has mostly gotten worse, rather than better, over time, and I doubt they are doing well as a company what with the general decline in interest in forums overall.
I'm strongly considering it. The major concerns are as follows.
1) There will be no more forum. Just discord. I want it to complement the forum, not replace it.
2) It is very difficult to archive Discord. I don't like losing things. Having 11 years of history build up here has value. If we switch to Discord, that value stops increasing.
3) Discord makes no money. They exist only because rich people are giving them money. There is a high likelihood of them disappearing/changing/fucking us over. When they do so, there is no way we can load a backup to a self-hosted solution.
4) Moderation and discussion in real time is way way different than a forum where you can think/edit before you push the button. That will be a huge change in mood/ton/culture of the community. '
5) Discord is extremely focused on video games and streaming specifically. Which we do, but is not so great for all of our other biz.
6) It has voice chat. We want text chat, but voice chat is not a thing I want. I especially don't want to have to moderate it. I don't think there is a way to have a Discord with voice chat disabled. Even if there was, I wouldn't want to disable it entirely because it will be useful in some situations, just not all the time.
Comments
Additionally, the distinction between read and unread threads on the topic pages was much more obvious in the old theme.
1. Identify 'read' thread, skip
2. Locate thread of interest, with new post, click.
The darker theme has maximum contrast, meaning easiest readability.
The previous theme this forum used was based on an earlier version of Boostrap. This one is based on Boostrap 3.
Include the right CSS file in your page:
<!-- Latest compiled and minified CSS -->
<link rel="stylesheet" href="https://maxcdn.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.3.7/css/bootstrap.min.css" integrity="sha384-BVYiiSIFeK1dGmJRAkycuHAHRg32OmUcww7on3RYdg4Va+PmSTsz/K68vbdEjh4u" crossorigin="anonymous">
<!-- Optional theme -->
<link rel="stylesheet" href="https://maxcdn.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.3.7/css/bootstrap-theme.min.css" integrity="sha384-rHyoN1iRsVXV4nD0JutlnGaslCJuC7uwjduW9SVrLvRYooPp2bWYgmgJQIXwl/Sp" crossorigin="anonymous">
<!-- Latest compiled and minified JavaScript -->
<script src="https://maxcdn.bootstrapcdn.com/bootstrap/3.3.7/js/bootstrap.min.js" integrity="sha384-Tc5IQib027qvyjSMfHjOMaLkfuWVxZxUPnCJA7l2mCWNIpG9mGCD8wGNIcPD7Txa" crossorigin="anonymous"></script>
These are served from a CDN, so don't worry about hotlinking. The theme stylesheet and JS are optional - just include them if you want some of the fancier stuff.
Then add some classes to your HTML tags, depending on how you want them to look. They're documented here. For example:
<button class="btn btn-lg btn-primary">will give you a button that looks nice, is larger than the standard size, and "primary" color (a shade of blue).A good place to start are the
container,rowandcol-*classes. They provide a skeleton for rows and columns that look pretty.The templates do have some good boilerplate that you wouldn't necessarily think to include otherwise, so they're a good place to start and modify to suit your needs.
- Almost no differentiation between threads with new comments and those without.
- Have to hit the actual link to a thread instead of the box
- Pagination at the bottom gives poor indication of how many pages. E.g. on the handegg thread, page 47 (currently next to last page), I see <<, First, 47, Last, and >>. How many pages are there? Do << and >> move you one page? Why are they outside First and Last then?
- When you're on the last page of a thread, Last is gone, but >> is merely grayed out.
- Black bar at the bottom is a stark contrast to the rest of the color scheme, and it's there on every page. And it doesn't load a new page, it just brings up a modal popup.
- Scrolling up and down, a third of the screen space disappears and reappears between Safari's menu bars, the forum search (worse than useless), "Front Row Crew Forum" title element, and black bar at the bottom.
- The first unread comment in a thread is partially covered up by the garbage at the top
That's what jumps out at me for starters.I wonder if less compact text will encourage better reading comprehension...
Is there nothing anyone can do to make this better?
Also, you made a bad reputation for yourself complaining about every single change ever, so I'm inclined to value your opinion less than others. I'm working harder to escape Vanilla on a more permanent basis anyway, so just wait for me to launch all new things so you can complain about even more.
Do you have no sense of usability in design changes? I don't want you to value my opinions because I am saying something, I want you to have the expertise not to inflict bad design on other users.
The old one makes it easier to click on a thread because the entire box is a touch zone, but that makes it very hard to click on anything else in the box that isn't the title. That being said, I never had trouble clicking the titles of the new one. I had no need for the entire box to be a touch zone.
On the new one it is harder to tell if a thread has new stuff because the new marker isn't a different color.
On the old one the threads are bigger, so you can see less per page.
On the old one the pagination is a bunch of individual numbers that are a pain to use. On the new one, the pagination are nice big boxes which are easy to touch.
The old one has an annoying top menu bar of tiny text.
The new one has a modern hamburger side-menu.
The new one wastes space at the top by putting a large title.
The old one wastes space at the top with emptiness.
The new one has a convenient black bar at the bottom.
The fonts, colors and design of the new one is way more modern and easier on the eyes.
Both waste valuable space highlighting the useless information about views and comment counts that shouldn't even be there.
There is no clear winner. You will complain about the negatives of any option, since no option is perfect. I'm paying $150 a month of my own money for this. Therefore, I'm going to pick whatever I like better, and you're just all going to have to deal with it. I'll change it however you like if you pay me $150 a month.
I don't really find the bottom bar convenient as the design starts to impede on Safari's use of the bottom portion of the screen. Also I never use those controls in the first place. But it's not so egregious that I would need it gone or anything.
1) There will be no more forum. Just discord. I want it to complement the forum, not replace it.
2) It is very difficult to archive Discord. I don't like losing things. Having 11 years of history build up here has value. If we switch to Discord, that value stops increasing.
3) Discord makes no money. They exist only because rich people are giving them money. There is a high likelihood of them disappearing/changing/fucking us over. When they do so, there is no way we can load a backup to a self-hosted solution.
4) Moderation and discussion in real time is way way different than a forum where you can think/edit before you push the button. That will be a huge change in mood/ton/culture of the community. '
5) Discord is extremely focused on video games and streaming specifically. Which we do, but is not so great for all of our other biz.
6) It has voice chat. We want text chat, but voice chat is not a thing I want. I especially don't want to have to moderate it. I don't think there is a way to have a Discord with voice chat disabled. Even if there was, I wouldn't want to disable it entirely because it will be useful in some situations, just not all the time.