I guess the only time I've had this come up is when I went to a Jewish wedding. It was requested of me that I wear a yarmulke. I went ahead and wore it. It meant nothing to me, and frankly, I just viewed it as a way I could honor the bride and groom.
How could you not want to wear a yarmulke? They are so stylin'!
If we lived in a perfect society of freedom I would wear nothing but a yarmulke and shoes.
Fun Fact: The Hebrew word for yarmulke is kippah כִּפָּה (kee-pah). It's much easier to say and spell, and if you say it around jews, they will think you're "not such a bad goy".
Wow, thanks for all your responses. Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner. I suppose I should give a few more details. I have talked to my parents about my atheism and the response was basically "You don't like it? Move out."
Is your laziness a greater reason to not do the confirmation than your professed atheism?
Laziness is a noble reason. By choosing not to bother with the ritual and its preparation, he's decreasing the rate of entropy entering the world and extending the time we have left before heat death.
Laze on, noble sir!
I'd say they're about equal. This whole situation has done nothing but make my atheism stronger.
Go through the confirmation and get them off your case. If you don't believe in it, it's just ritual and doesn't mean a goddamn thing.
I should note that I have to do a "service project" that I really don't want to do.
Is your laziness a greater reason to not do the confirmation than your professed atheism?
Laziness is a noble reason. By choosing not to bother with the ritual and its preparation, he's decreasing the rate of entropy entering the world and extending the time we have left before heat death.
Laze on, noble sir!
Extremely well put, Rym.
There are reasons for going on with it for me greater than my parents. Mainly my parents, aunts and uncles, and all their friends. Someone up there said something about respecting religious commitment. I do respect people who are somewhat-but-not-fanatically committed to their religion. In fact, my sponsor is a surgeon who I know sees many people die in a week. For him, I think he might need Catholicism, ya know, for hope. For all those people who he sees die. It's just the way he handles it from day to day, "knowing" that they will be in a better place.
Makes me wonder if, were I in a similar situation, I'd convert to a religion. I have trouble believing in, say, an almighty power that's always looking out for me...but maybe it's easier to if you have to.
I have talked to my parents about my atheism and the response was basically "You don't like it? Move out."
As in you spoke with them before or that was their response? If their faith and their want for you to be of the same faith is stronger than their love for you, than they are horrible, horrible people.
That being said, it might be better to just go along with them untill you're out of their home. Give em lip service just to keep things sane.
As for the thing you have to do, is it like community service? I found Habitat for Humanity was a lot of fun.
1) I still can't imagine that 15 year olds can be so sure about life to have abandoned faith all together. I'm 28 and I know I don't have it all figured out. 2) Going through the motions and going forward with a false Confirmation is just a terrible idea on all fronts. You "know" it means nothing to you so you are doing yourself no good. You would be committing the moral equivalent to a sin by lying to your parents and relatives. Being Confirmed within the Church is a rite of maturing into an adult Catholic. If you are not one, you should not and actually, may not participate. 3) Talk to your parents and - especially - talk to the priest. He'll have some good advice. 4) Just wanted to point out how truly, truly sad the idea of atheism is. I'm not telling you to follow a particular religion. As I've said before, most religions suck, but the ldea of faith in a higher power is a noble experience. And, if I'm wrong? No harm, no foul. You guys better be right. Otherwise, stuff would suck.
Just wanted to point out how truly, truly sad the idea of atheism is.
Oh God, this opens a can of worms. I will chime in, though, and say that one thing that is valuable from religion is a sense of morality. I know... many will respond that they are moral and that they don't need religion to be moral. That's not my point. My point is that anything that advocates a set of morals is a good thing. You may disagree with some beliefs, but only the overly cynical would say that the foundational beliefs are not well intended.
Now before anyone starts going nuts... remember... you don't have to participate in a religion if you don't want to. So take a deep breath, and let those who want to do it engage in that activity. You won't convince them, and they won't convince you - and that's fine. I've never understood why so many people defend the first amendment in one post, and bash religous speech in another. It's entirely inconsistent.
4) Just wanted to point out how truly, truly sad the idea of atheism is. I'm not telling you to follow a particular religion. As I've said before, most religions suck, but the ldea of faith in a higher power is a noble experience. And, if I'm wrong? No harm, no foul. You guys better be right. Otherwise, stuff would suck.
Just wanted to point out how truly, truly sad the idea of faith in a higher power is. I'm not telling you to follow no religion. But as I've said before, most religions suck, and looking after your fellow human beings and the world they live in without depending on an invisible man in the sky is a noble experience.
I will chime in, though, and say that one thing that is valuable from religion is a sense of morality. I know... many will respond that they are moral and that they don't need religion to be moral. That's not my point. My point is thatanythingthat advocates a set of morals is a good thing. You may disagree with some beliefs, but only the overly cynical would say that the foundational beliefs are not well intended.
The problem I have with this is that most religions teach morality as a way to avoid some sort of punishment, not because it is the right thing to do. When I talk to some of my friends who are heavily involved with Christianity they often say, "oh that person is going to go to hell" or some other phrase in which ones bad actions are a ticket to hell, not just a purely immoral decision. The religions use fear tactics in order to keep their followers in check and to follow their religion. Does that sound correct to you?
1) I still can't imagine that 15 year olds can be so sure about life to have abandoned faith all together. I'm 28 and I know I don't have it all figured out. 2) Going through the motions and going forward with a false Confirmation is just a terrible idea on all fronts. You "know" it means nothing to you so you are doing yourself no good. You would be committing the moral equivalent to a sin by lying to your parents and relatives. Being Confirmed within the Church is a rite of maturing into an adult Catholic. If you are not one, you should not and actually, may not participate. 3) Talk to your parents and - especially - talk to the priest. He'll have some good advice. 4) Just wanted to point out how truly, truly sad the idea of atheism is. I'm not telling you to follow a particular religion. As I've said before, most religions suck, but the ldea of faith in a higher power is a noble experience. And, if I'm wrong? No harm, no foul. You guys better be right. Otherwise, stuff would suck.
1. I did. 2. This is true, but if they're going to FORCE him to do it wether he wants to or not, what then? 3. This could be positive or disasterous. Depending on how intilligent the preist is, they may not offer any help other than to threaten you, pity you, or demand you do what your parents want. On the other hand, they may have some advice from past experience where something like this came up. 4. ::twitch: I....the.....you...GARGH! It is NOT sad! I don't even know where to begin pointing out the logical long-jump you just tried to pull, not to mention the almost insulting insinuation. NOR is belief in a higher power any more noble! I can't think where to begin on the verbal bitchslapping I should dish out for that statement! /fury //more fury
Posted By: Sparkybuzzed1) I still can't imagine that 15 year olds can be so sure about life to have abandoned faith all together. I'm 28 and I know I don't have it all figured out.That's the logical fallacy of Argument from Incredulity. Personally I was a convinced atheist before turning 15, and have never found a reason to doubt that world view in the 20 years that have passed since. The fact that Trogdor42 is considering coming out as an atheist and stand up to his parents' strict religious upbringing, tells me that he is certain in his beliefs and will probably never change his mind.
3) Talk to your parents and - especially - talk to the priest. He'll have some good advice.
Talking to the priest is probably a very good idea. He might be even more narrow minded than your parents, but in my experience priests are usually quite understanding in these matters. There's a good chance he will support you in not going through the confirmation program at this point. And whatever his view, he can probably talk to your parents in a way that calms the situation down a bit. Use the fact that he is their religious authority!
That's entirely subjective - which is my point. It's good for some people and bad for others. I certainly respect someone's right to practice religion, and unless I'm asked for my opinion, I keep it to myself. Sometimes it just isn't worth arguing something that is entirely subjective.
I suppose I should clear a few things up before we continue. Before posting to this thread I had come out of the atheist closet. Second, I'm not so sure about talking to my priest. He's cool (for a priest) and all, but for some reason I don't feel comfortable telling my priest I'm an atheist. Once again, thank you all (Except Sparkybuzzed :-P) for your responses. I felt kind of alone before posting. I have to go now, I'll post again later if I get a chance.
Well, I can't say I'm an atheist, but I'm not religous. But I totally understand this situation, since my dad is uber christian (my mom's cool: she's the same way as me). What I do is I just let my dad say what he wants. If he wants to believe Jesus walked the earth and then died, that's his prerogative. As for me, I'm happy thinking that, although there might be some cosmic force keeping an eye on me, so long as I'm nice towards others, it'll reciprocate, and that I'm in charge of my own destiny.
I actually completely disagree with what some of you are saying. I think it is fully ok to go through the motions with religious “traditions†because honestly everyone knows they are just there to make the group more cohesive. Any rituals a religion does that do not violate any of your deeply held sensibility (like killing babies, beating up people that are not part of your religion or who are homosexual[I realize some of you are going to say you have a deeply held believe in no god]) only serve to bring you into the fold SOCIALLY. Honestly, Church and religion only serves as a means for social interaction with the “ritual†being used to bind the people together. So feel free to go to attend Catholic Mass. Who cares, bring a DS and sit in the back if you cannot get out of it. As soon as you are in college away from home or moved out on your own you can forget this bullshit. Honestly, I started going to fellowship on Sunday mornings just for the fun lectures and debate (but that’s the Unitarians they are like that!)
4) Just wanted to point out how truly, truly sad the idea of atheism is. I'm not telling you to follow a particular religion. As I've said before, most religions suck, but the idea of faith in a higher power is a noble experience. And, if I'm wrong? No harm, no foul. You guys better be right. Otherwise, stuff would suck.
Not to sound antagonistic, but that's a laughable argument. How is a lack of blind faith in stories with clear secular origins sad? Your lack of belief in people who think they're vampires and scientology's Xenu is just as sad.
How is it noble to be credulous? Being credulous requires the least effort and least thought of all possible options; it's the path of least resistance. If anything, it's noble to be skeptical, for such requires the strength to question everything and the courage to stand on your own two feet. I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by credulity being "noble," or how you would defend such a statement.
You guys had better be right.
Pascal's Wager is logically fallacious. Having no information, it's just as likely that a god would punish you for believing in him as it is that he'd reward you. It's not a belief that there are no gods, it's a lack of belief that there are gods. There's no "being right" or being wrong about it. A god either exists or it does not. There is no evidence for, and some evidence against. The logical conclusion is that the god does not exist.
think it is fully ok to go through the motions with religious “traditions†because honestly everyone knows they are just there to make the group more cohesive
Paying lip service to something like this (be it religion, scientology, faith healing, acupuncture, or whatever) is tantamount to supporting it, and only encourages these people. I can't ignore it if someone tries to tell me their chiropractor cured their whatever. I won't pretend to believe in something I don't for any man.
I suppose my personal sense of honour is more important to me than having the respect of people for whom I myself hold none.
Any rituals... only serve to bring you into the fold SOCIALLY.
To you they do. To the people who believe in the ritual, you're only re-affirming their beliefs and ignoring the absurdity of what they're making you do. Conforming to something you disagree with just to fit in is, in my opinion, cowardly.
Paying lip service to something like this (be it religion, scientology, faith healing, acupuncture, or whatever) is tantamount to supporting it, and only encourages these people. I can't ignore it if someone tries to tell me their chiropractor cured their whatever. I won't pretend to believe in something I don't for any man.
Trigun.
Sometimes in life, you might have to compromise a strongly held principle in order to continue. Sometimes, that's necessary. And many times, it just makes things a hell of a lot easier on you.
Sometimes in life, you might have to compromise a strongly held principle in order to continue. Sometimes, that's necessary. And many times, it just makes things a hell of a lot easier on you.
The best leaders this world has ever known were good at knowing when to compromise.
I wanted to chime in again on this discussion and point out that talking to your priest is a really good piece of advice I hadn't thought of. It could certainly help, as if he's a good community leader he'll want you to stand up for your beliefs, and it seems rather unlikely to hurt in any event. Normally I'd recommend against seeking advice from someone who bases their world view in the supernatural, but I know some priests are well educated, and the fact that you can make an appeal to authority to back your position to your parents may be helpful.
If nothing else, he may be able to provide some good counsel, as I'm sure he's talked to kids having a "crisis of faith" before. It may help to ask him what advice he'd give to someone from a non-catholic family who wanted to convert.
Well, nice. I probably should have separated the advice from the opinion in my last post.
(beware genrealization) Preists are there to counsel and teach. If you go and speak to him in confidence then there is nothing he can do but listen and offer his opinion/advice. That's his job. He hears confession, doles out advice and suggestions. If you can't trust in a sacred authority placed upon him, at least understand and trust that a vast majority of preists are good men who want to help people.
As far as the rest of it, a belief in a higher power does not mean I have a vision of a scary old man in the clouds. It's very Greek/Roman and not quite what I have in mind. I don't know what the issue is with believing in some type of higher power or spiritual essence that connects us all. Forget the heaven/hell-religion argument. Just the idea that there is a spiritual - or "supernatural" - connection between all of us and all of the universe is comforting to many billions of people.
Also, the argument that things shouldn't be brought up because no one will change their minds is ridiculous. Discussion always sparks interest and a lively conversation that can serve to show the differences between people. I don't dislike anyone for not believing in anything, the same way I would expect to not be disliked instantly for believing. I completely respect the choices some of you have made. Don't understand them, but respect them.
As far as the rest of it, a belief in a higher power does not mean I have a vision of a scary old man in the clouds. It's very Greek/Roman and not quite what I have in mind. I don't know what the issue is with believing in some type of higher power or spiritual essence that connects us all. Forget the heaven/hell-religion argument. Just the idea that there is a spiritual - or "supernatural" - connection between all of us and all of the universe is comforting to many billions of people.
Also, the argument that things shouldn't be brought up because no one will change their minds is ridiculous. Discussion always sparks interest and a lively conversation that can serve to show the differences between people. I don't dislike anyone for not believing in anything, the same way I would expect to not be disliked instantly for believing. I completely respect the choices some of you have made. Don't understand them, but respect them.
Good point...starting a new thread for this purpose (under flamewars, of course)
I'm an atheist in that religion is bollocks and there is no evidence of gods. Spirituality and philosophy, however, are entirely different realms, wherein I have entirely different opinions. ^_~
Explaining to my family that I had too much respect for their beliefs to go through it was how I got out of it. Confirmation isn't as serious in Anglicanism as in Catholosism, its more something between the person and God than a cultural thing. But you still have to make oaths and stuff. I guess it depends on how you feel, I knew that I would feel guilty doing it and taking eucharist because I knew that I was surrounded by people who were doing it sincerely but if you feel you would feel worse about dissapointing your parents then do it.
Sorry for the massive bump, but I, just this morning, admitted to my deeply religious father that I am an atheist. He's a Muslim, and seemed very distraught. I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off of me now. But, I told him while in the car, before he dropped me off at school, and he started yelling at me that he can no longer associate with me, and that atheists are arrogant people and all that. It took a lot of balls to come out and tell him, but I'm glad I did so. He isn't home from work yet, but I imagine he's really really pissed. Apparently, he talked to me not nearly as religious mom at about noon and told her that he's failed as a parent. I don't really know what's gonna happen from here on out.
Either your parents love you or they don't. If they suddenly don't love you because you disagree with them on something, what does that say about them?
My dad, since yesterday after he got home, has either been yelling at me, or ignoring me. This morning he stopped me in my room before my mom drove me to school, and started talking. His main points were a) all atheists are either sexual deviants or part of hate groups, b) there is no way the world could have existed without God, c) the internet and books have corrupted me. I could have easily countered this BS, but, my father is a very large man, and I was quite frightened of him, seeing as I am of much lesser stature. Also, he has created a firewall blocking the words "atheist," "atheism," and "podcast." Obviously, Islam means more to him than I do.
Your family is Muslim? Are you the only one of the forum? It would like to hear your views on the religion since the majority of the religious people here are Christian.
Comments
Fun Fact: The Hebrew word for yarmulke is kippah כִּפָּה (kee-pah). It's much easier to say and spell, and if you say it around jews, they will think you're "not such a bad goy".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarmulke
There are reasons for going on with it for me greater than my parents. Mainly my parents, aunts and uncles, and all their friends. Someone up there said something about respecting religious commitment. I do respect people who are somewhat-but-not-fanatically committed to their religion. In fact, my sponsor is a surgeon who I know sees many people die in a week. For him, I think he might need Catholicism, ya know, for hope. For all those people who he sees die. It's just the way he handles it from day to day, "knowing" that they will be in a better place.
Did that makes sense?
Makes me wonder if, were I in a similar situation, I'd convert to a religion. I have trouble believing in, say, an almighty power that's always looking out for me...but maybe it's easier to if you have to.
As in you spoke with them before or that was their response? If their faith and their want for you to be of the same faith is stronger than their love for you, than they are horrible, horrible people.
That being said, it might be better to just go along with them untill you're out of their home. Give em lip service just to keep things sane.
As for the thing you have to do, is it like community service? I found Habitat for Humanity was a lot of fun.
2) Going through the motions and going forward with a false Confirmation is just a terrible idea on all fronts. You "know" it means nothing to you so you are doing yourself no good. You would be committing the moral equivalent to a sin by lying to your parents and relatives. Being Confirmed within the Church is a rite of maturing into an adult Catholic. If you are not one, you should not and actually, may not participate.
3) Talk to your parents and - especially - talk to the priest. He'll have some good advice.
4) Just wanted to point out how truly, truly sad the idea of atheism is. I'm not telling you to follow a particular religion. As I've said before, most religions suck, but the ldea of faith in a higher power is a noble experience. And, if I'm wrong? No harm, no foul. You guys better be right. Otherwise, stuff would suck.
Now before anyone starts going nuts... remember... you don't have to participate in a religion if you don't want to. So take a deep breath, and let those who want to do it engage in that activity. You won't convince them, and they won't convince you - and that's fine. I've never understood why so many people defend the first amendment in one post, and bash religous speech in another. It's entirely inconsistent.
2. This is true, but if they're going to FORCE him to do it wether he wants to or not, what then?
3. This could be positive or disasterous. Depending on how intilligent the preist is, they may not offer any help other than to threaten you, pity you, or demand you do what your parents want. On the other hand, they may have some advice from past experience where something like this came up.
4. ::twitch: I....the.....you...GARGH! It is NOT sad! I don't even know where to begin pointing out the logical long-jump you just tried to pull, not to mention the almost insulting insinuation. NOR is belief in a higher power any more noble! I can't think where to begin on the verbal bitchslapping I should dish out for that statement!
/fury
//more fury
How is it noble to be credulous? Being credulous requires the least effort and least thought of all possible options; it's the path of least resistance. If anything, it's noble to be skeptical, for such requires the strength to question everything and the courage to stand on your own two feet. I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by credulity being "noble," or how you would defend such a statement. Pascal's Wager is logically fallacious. Having no information, it's just as likely that a god would punish you for believing in him as it is that he'd reward you. It's not a belief that there are no gods, it's a lack of belief that there are gods. There's no "being right" or being wrong about it. A god either exists or it does not. There is no evidence for, and some evidence against. The logical conclusion is that the god does not exist. Paying lip service to something like this (be it religion, scientology, faith healing, acupuncture, or whatever) is tantamount to supporting it, and only encourages these people. I can't ignore it if someone tries to tell me their chiropractor cured their whatever. I won't pretend to believe in something I don't for any man.
I suppose my personal sense of honour is more important to me than having the respect of people for whom I myself hold none. To you they do. To the people who believe in the ritual, you're only re-affirming their beliefs and ignoring the absurdity of what they're making you do. Conforming to something you disagree with just to fit in is, in my opinion, cowardly.
Sometimes in life, you might have to compromise a strongly held principle in order to continue. Sometimes, that's necessary. And many times, it just makes things a hell of a lot easier on you.
If nothing else, he may be able to provide some good counsel, as I'm sure he's talked to kids having a "crisis of faith" before. It may help to ask him what advice he'd give to someone from a non-catholic family who wanted to convert.
(beware genrealization) Preists are there to counsel and teach. If you go and speak to him in confidence then there is nothing he can do but listen and offer his opinion/advice. That's his job. He hears confession, doles out advice and suggestions. If you can't trust in a sacred authority placed upon him, at least understand and trust that a vast majority of preists are good men who want to help people.
As far as the rest of it, a belief in a higher power does not mean I have a vision of a scary old man in the clouds. It's very Greek/Roman and not quite what I have in mind. I don't know what the issue is with believing in some type of higher power or spiritual essence that connects us all. Forget the heaven/hell-religion argument. Just the idea that there is a spiritual - or "supernatural" - connection between all of us and all of the universe is comforting to many billions of people.
Also, the argument that things shouldn't be brought up because no one will change their minds is ridiculous. Discussion always sparks interest and a lively conversation that can serve to show the differences between people. I don't dislike anyone for not believing in anything, the same way I would expect to not be disliked instantly for believing. I completely respect the choices some of you have made. Don't understand them, but respect them.
a) all atheists are either sexual deviants or part of hate groups,
b) there is no way the world could have existed without God,
c) the internet and books have corrupted me.
I could have easily countered this BS, but, my father is a very large man, and I was quite frightened of him, seeing as I am of much lesser stature. Also, he has created a firewall blocking the words "atheist," "atheism," and "podcast." Obviously, Islam means more to him than I do.