Your family is Muslim? Are you the only one of the forum? It would like to hear your views on the religion since the majority of the religious people here are Christian.
Well, first of all, the Quran is mostly about miracles that God has performed, wars, and the "Day of Judgment." Everything else in the religion in taken from the "hadiths" of Muhammad. I haven't read many hadiths, but I hear them recited every Sunday at the religious school my dad makes me attend. They are sort of like the laws that all Muslims must abide by. I could tell you more if you specified on what you wanted to know. Edit: to clarify, my mother isn't Muslim. She was Catholic before she married my dad, but she never really practiced after college. She still believes that there is one God that created everything, although she seems to have very agnostic views.
Wow, I just typed a big long thing and then my session timed out. Oh well.
Here's the gist:
If you think your father if a decent guy at heart, cares about you, and is acting out of the belief that what he is doing is in your best interest, then you don't want to alienate him. He's your family after all. Any discussion you have with him should be about your relationship, and wanting to keep him in your life and as a father. It seems like he's not a religious crazy-person or anything, seeing as he married out of his faith and didn't force your mom to convert.
It seems to me he is just taking the news very poorly, and I think part of that is in relation to his misconceptions about atheism. I think you already know the arguments about how being an atheist does not mean you have no morals, how he's probably never really known an atheist so his judgements are premature, etc.
If I'm wrong, and I could be, and your father is more fanatical about his faith than you're pointing out here, then it may be best simply to lay low, be polite, don't bring it up again if you can help it, and ride it out until you are able to be on your own. Once you're stable enough, cut ties and never speak to him again. People who encourage intolerance or turn on their own families to the point of loving their faith more than the people around them are not worth the effort and are toxic emotionally.
EDIT: Oh, and that 'failure as a parent' thing. Point out to him all the great things he's taught you: How to be a good person, how to think for yourself, respecting others, etc. etc. All of that stuff doesn't go away because you don't want to be Muslim. You can tell him you're a person first, and an athiest second, and you're still the same person you were before you told him.
I have an uncle that is muslim, he married my aunt who I believe is still catholic if not cristian. She told me that when she have a child she will raise her muslim because of my uncle and then at the age of 18 she can decided what religion her son/daugther would follow. However, she did told me that if her son/ daugther was to choose something different from mulsminism she would not know how my uncle would react. My uncle is a good person at heart, he told me some things about the Quran and it was interesting, she told me that it was written in the Quran that if a person is to bring a new person into the religion that person would have doors of heaven automatically open. Also people that believe in the after life tend to want their whole family to be together forever, and I believe for a parent there is nothing more important that his/her offspring.
I would recommend you to put yourself in your father's shoes and try to understand him.
I personally believe that if you have an open view of the world in all aspects then religion is not a bad thing. But it is humanity that corrups everything. Humans have a potential for good and evil and .... what you gonna do that how life is.
I don't think you should change your views. The fact that you stumbled upon them on your own and they weren't the result of child indoctrination should tell you something. If you don't believe in what the religion is teaching, then don't try to. There is nothing healthy about believing something just for acceptance. If your father doesn't budge or come around, drop the subject and move out the first chance you get.
I remember an interesting conversation I had back at IBM. One uber-christian co-worker, for some reason, was going on and on about how atheists are evil, amoral, dangerous, etc... Once he slowed down, I asked him if he thought I was a good person. He said yes. I asked him if I was evil. He said no. I asked him if I was religous. He hesitated. I explained that I was an atheist.
His response? After a shocked silence, be basically said "well, you're not bad, but the rest of them are."
Now, it was at this point that another co-worker, who had been engaged in his lunch, ponted out that he was also an athiest, as was most of his family. He also mentioned that yet a third co-worker was openly atheistic.
He didn't know what to say to all of that, but he never seemed to quite trust any of us again. I ended up quitting (unrelatedly) not too long after, so I never really got to see how much of an effect that conversation had.
Haha. I've been wanting to do that same thing. One of my teachers at school is exactly like that, I'm waiting for him to make some similar claim like that so I can jump in respond with something like, "well, do you think I have morals," etc., because he does seem to really respect me.
I remember an interesting conversation I had back at IBM. One uber-christian co-worker, for some reason, was going on and on about how atheists are evil, amoral, dangerous, etc... Once he slowed down, I asked him if he thought I was a good person. He said yes. I asked him if I was evil. He said no. I asked him if I was religous. He hesitated. I explained that I was an atheist.
His response? After a shocked silence, be basically said "well,you'renot bad, but the rest of them are."
I do not know why judge a whole comunity when they do not even know them. Prejudice is very silly.
He seems to want me to convert to Islam, but he didn't yell at me this morning or last night. He has, however, been forcing me to do salah with him (Islamic prayers). I guess the only thing within my power is to go along with religious schooling on Sundays, salah, etc. until I'm able to move out.
Well, beating the hell out of you psychologically with prayers isn't going to do anything, obviously.
Like I mentioned before, you have to determine if it's you he cares about, or if it's you being Muslim that he cares about. Once you figure out which is more important to him, you can act with more clarity. not yelling is a good sign that he's a decent guy so far, but even he should realize you can't force someone to believe in anything.
How old are you anyway, Law? If you're 17/18-ish, moving out may be a good option, which can happen if you're headed to college anyway.
When I was going to Hebrew school back when I was like, 11, 12 years old, I went because my parents forced me. Well, my mother actually. My father tried to tell her that it was torture for him, but she had me convinced that I should have a Bar Mitzvah. I went through the motions, but I never believed any of it (Thinking back, I was probably atheist several years before my Bar Mitzvah). Sure I had a great party and stuff, but afterwards I stopped caring about work in Hebrew school, simply sat in class and read a book, didn't pay any real attention to anything because I'd heard it all before and I'd already been Bar Mitzvah'd. My mom insisted I do the homework and school work for it, but I simply said that I didn't want to, she couldn't force me to, and I had enough regular homework and schoolwork that DID matter that I would rather be working on. I also started refusing to go to temple, which we only did on the high holidays, not only because I didn't believe a word of it, but because it was a miserable experience to sit for three and a half hours in a suit and go through the prayer book. Entirely unfulfilling emotionally, intellectually, physically and 'spiritually'. My mother even harassed me on the phone in college to try and convince me to go to the campus's Jewish association and to services. I went once, to appease her, and was again treated to a painfully unfullfilling experience. I also figured out her real motive was to try and get me to meet some 'nice Jewish girls', and the ones there were unappealing both physically and intellectually.
He seems to want me to convert to Islam, but he didn't yell at me this morning or last night. He has, however, been forcing me to dosalahwith him (Islamic prayers). I guess the only thing within my power is to go along with religious schooling on Sundays, salah, etc. until I'm able to move out.
If a Jewish father found out his child wanted to convert to the Bahai faith, and then beat the child and forced them to pray, is he a good father?
If his answer is no, then the hypocracy is obvious. If he answers yes, then all I can say is he's not a very good parent and probably not a great person either, in which case your courses of action are likely fewer and more distancing.
When I told my parents, they got angry, but I just argued my position of why I was an atheist calmly. My dad accepted it, but still tries to convert me about once a month. My mother on the other hand, decided to get angry and somewhat violent with me. She wouldn't hit me or anything (not that she could hurt me, being that she's a small overweight asian woman), but she would turn every conversation into why I was going to hell, which lead to her trying to get violent with me. She couldn't convince me to be a christian because she can't argue worth a damn, and has no sense of logic, which lead to her getting frustrated and telling me to punch her, and that if I couldn't fight her I wasn't a real man. It was really odd, but I guess she though if I wouldn't beat her up, she won when we had arguments...
Anyways, parents will get mad, but if you can justify your reasons for being an atheist, they can't do anything to you mentally, but physically... If your dad starts beating you, call social services or something. Get the number for CPS. i don't know how old you are, but you might be able to get an emancipation or something. I knew a guy who did that and I almost did (I stayed because I wanted free money to help me get through college). Unless you still want to live with your parents still... It's complicated, I guess...
My parent's surprisingly didn't care too much when they found out I was atheist. They just asked me why I wasn't catholic, and after I told them they accepted it. They will occasionally make jokes, like saying something about God and then nudging me on the shoulder, but they pretty much accept my decision and decided not to bug in.
This video showed up on Digg today. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from it. The first lesson is that videotaping your parent's reactions when you tell them you don't believe in god is an awesome idea.
This videoshowed up on Digg today. There are a lot of lessons to be learned from it. The first lesson is that videotaping your parent's reactions when you tell them you don't believe in god is an awesome idea.
That video is actually kind of old. I was surprised that so many people hadn't seen it. But there is much to be learned from it. This is pretty much close to worse-case scenario short of them kicking out out of the house.
That video is actually kind of old. I was surprised that so many people hadn't seen it. But there is much to be learned from it. This is pretty much close to worse-case scenario short of them kicking out out of the house.
Wow, you think that's the worst case? Not even close.
p>I would recommend you to put yourself in your father's shoesand try to understand him.
Why is it that the atheists and agnostics always have to acquiesce to the person who believes in a religion? Why is the religious person's belief's than the atheist's lack of beliefs? Why are their thoughts and feelings considered more valued or more delicate?
Why is it that a religious person can't for once, JUST ONCE, put themselves into an atheist shoes and realize the social pressure they are constantly under to compromise the integrity of their thoughts and feelings? Why are the narrow minded rewarded?
I do not care what a person believes, as long as they do not harm anyone with those beliefs or force them on someone else. Why can't there be mutual respect and understanding for multiple view-points? Why does everyone need to feel "right" in this situation? It is not a question or "right" and "wrong"; it is a question of opinion, fact, faith, and feeling.
p>I would recommend you to put yourself in your father'sshoesand try to understand him.
Why is it that the atheists and agnostics always have to acquiesce to the person who believes in a religion? Why is the religious person's belief's than the atheist's lack of beliefs? Why are their thoughts and feelings considered more valued or more delicate?
Why is it that a religious person can't for once, JUST ONCE, put themselves into an atheist shoes and realize the social pressure they are constantly under to compromise the integrity of their thoughts and feelings? Why are the narrow minded rewarded?
I do not care what a person believes, as long as they do not harm anyone with those beliefs or force them on someone else. Why can't there be mutual respect and understanding for multiple view-points? Why does everyone need to feel "right" in this situation? It is not a question or "right" and "wrong"; it is a question of opinion, fact, faith, and feeling.
Any time ethics come up in society and politics, people are going to rub their beliefs on others. Also, at the very core of some of these religions (though many either ignore or are oblivious to them), are fundamental principles that advocate violence and death to those that do not share the same beliefs and/or go against them. As an atheist, anything I do/say could be interpreted or construed as me passing off my beliefs just by the nature of them being secular.
p>I would recommend you to put yourself in your father'sshoesand try to understand him.
Why is it that the atheists and agnostics always have to acquiesce to the person who believes in a religion? Why is the religious person's belief's than the atheist's lack of beliefs? Why are their thoughts and feelings considered more valued or more delicate? Why is it that a religious person can't for once, JUST ONCE, put themselves into an atheist shoes and realize the social pressure they are constantly under to compromise the integrity of their thoughts and feelings? Why are the narrow minded rewarded? I do not care what a person believes, as long as they do not harm anyone with those beliefs or force them on someone else. Why can't there be mutual respect and understanding for multiple view-points? Why does everyone need to feel "right" in this situation? It is not a question or "right" and "wrong"; it is a question of opinion, fact, faith, and feeling.
Well, I believe that all parents care about their kids. Even animals protect their offsprings from danger. The least thing you can do for your parent that have being supporting you since you where a child is to understand him not because he is religious but because he is your parent.
I can only asume that the parent would not care since the parent do not care about if there is heaven or hell after dead. I guess the father would cherish the time he has with his child on earth.
Then again I am only asuming, since there is a lot different persons in this world everyone of them is very different from each other.
Apparently now there's something wrong with me, and I'm going to hell and they failed as parents blah blah blah. It's taking everything I have not to cry. (Scratch that: FAIL) They accuse me of being brainwashed because I'm attending college (which is odd because none of my professors are atheists), a geek, and my personal favorite, young and stupid.
Hang in there. Give it a week or two to simmer down, and then you can slowly broach the topic with polite rationale for your beliefs. Tell them to read "The God Delusion," with the understanding that you want to honestly discuss it with them and with an open mind. Play it as though you're not 100% sure, and that you want them to convince you.
That's the best place to start. Make them think that they can talk you down, and use that as subtle leverage to get them to talk to you about it without the overcharged emotion they have now. Use the book as the basis for the discussion, and make them believe that you earnestly want discourse with them about it. If they ask you to read something like the Bible in return, do it (you'll have plenty to argue against if they do, and it will only hurt their cause in the long run).
Comments
Edit: to clarify, my mother isn't Muslim. She was Catholic before she married my dad, but she never really practiced after college. She still believes that there is one God that created everything, although she seems to have very agnostic views.
Here's the gist:
If you think your father if a decent guy at heart, cares about you, and is acting out of the belief that what he is doing is in your best interest, then you don't want to alienate him. He's your family after all. Any discussion you have with him should be about your relationship, and wanting to keep him in your life and as a father. It seems like he's not a religious crazy-person or anything, seeing as he married out of his faith and didn't force your mom to convert.
It seems to me he is just taking the news very poorly, and I think part of that is in relation to his misconceptions about atheism. I think you already know the arguments about how being an atheist does not mean you have no morals, how he's probably never really known an atheist so his judgements are premature, etc.
If I'm wrong, and I could be, and your father is more fanatical about his faith than you're pointing out here, then it may be best simply to lay low, be polite, don't bring it up again if you can help it, and ride it out until you are able to be on your own. Once you're stable enough, cut ties and never speak to him again. People who encourage intolerance or turn on their own families to the point of loving their faith more than the people around them are not worth the effort and are toxic emotionally.
EDIT: Oh, and that 'failure as a parent' thing. Point out to him all the great things he's taught you: How to be a good person, how to think for yourself, respecting others, etc. etc. All of that stuff doesn't go away because you don't want to be Muslim. You can tell him you're a person first, and an athiest second, and you're still the same person you were before you told him.
I would recommend you to put yourself in your father's shoes and try to understand him.
I personally believe that if you have an open view of the world in all aspects then religion is not a bad thing. But it is humanity that corrups everything. Humans have a potential for good and evil and .... what you gonna do that how life is.
His response? After a shocked silence, be basically said "well, you're not bad, but the rest of them are."
Now, it was at this point that another co-worker, who had been engaged in his lunch, ponted out that he was also an athiest, as was most of his family. He also mentioned that yet a third co-worker was openly atheistic.
He didn't know what to say to all of that, but he never seemed to quite trust any of us again. I ended up quitting (unrelatedly) not too long after, so I never really got to see how much of an effect that conversation had.
(Exception for religious private schools)
His response? After a shocked silence, be basically said "well,you'renot bad, but the rest of them are."
I do not know why judge a whole comunity when they do not even know them. Prejudice is very silly.
Like I mentioned before, you have to determine if it's you he cares about, or if it's you being Muslim that he cares about. Once you figure out which is more important to him, you can act with more clarity. not yelling is a good sign that he's a decent guy so far, but even he should realize you can't force someone to believe in anything.
How old are you anyway, Law? If you're 17/18-ish, moving out may be a good option, which can happen if you're headed to college anyway.
When I was going to Hebrew school back when I was like, 11, 12 years old, I went because my parents forced me. Well, my mother actually. My father tried to tell her that it was torture for him, but she had me convinced that I should have a Bar Mitzvah. I went through the motions, but I never believed any of it (Thinking back, I was probably atheist several years before my Bar Mitzvah). Sure I had a great party and stuff, but afterwards I stopped caring about work in Hebrew school, simply sat in class and read a book, didn't pay any real attention to anything because I'd heard it all before and I'd already been Bar Mitzvah'd. My mom insisted I do the homework and school work for it, but I simply said that I didn't want to, she couldn't force me to, and I had enough regular homework and schoolwork that DID matter that I would rather be working on. I also started refusing to go to temple, which we only did on the high holidays, not only because I didn't believe a word of it, but because it was a miserable experience to sit for three and a half hours in a suit and go through the prayer book. Entirely unfulfilling emotionally, intellectually, physically and 'spiritually'. My mother even harassed me on the phone in college to try and convince me to go to the campus's Jewish association and to services. I went once, to appease her, and was again treated to a painfully unfullfilling experience. I also figured out her real motive was to try and get me to meet some 'nice Jewish girls', and the ones there were unappealing both physically and intellectually.
Bah, I'm rambling again.
Seems like you're in a pretty terrible situation.
If a Jewish father found out his child wanted to convert to the Bahai faith, and then beat the child and forced them to pray, is he a good father?
If his answer is no, then the hypocracy is obvious. If he answers yes, then all I can say is he's not a very good parent and probably not a great person either, in which case your courses of action are likely fewer and more distancing.
Anyways, parents will get mad, but if you can justify your reasons for being an atheist, they can't do anything to you mentally, but physically... If your dad starts beating you, call social services or something. Get the number for CPS. i don't know how old you are, but you might be able to get an emancipation or something. I knew a guy who did that and I almost did (I stayed because I wanted free money to help me get through college). Unless you still want to live with your parents still... It's complicated, I guess...
Why is it that the atheists and agnostics always have to acquiesce to the person who believes in a religion? Why is the religious person's belief's than the atheist's lack of beliefs? Why are their thoughts and feelings considered more valued or more delicate?
Why is it that a religious person can't for once, JUST ONCE, put themselves into an atheist shoes and realize the social pressure they are constantly under to compromise the integrity of their thoughts and feelings? Why are the narrow minded rewarded?
I do not care what a person believes, as long as they do not harm anyone with those beliefs or force them on someone else. Why can't there be mutual respect and understanding for multiple view-points? Why does everyone need to feel "right" in this situation? It is not a question or "right" and "wrong"; it is a question of opinion, fact, faith, and feeling.
Why is it that the atheists and agnostics always have to acquiesce to the person who believes in a religion? Why is the religious person's belief's than the atheist's lack of beliefs? Why are their thoughts and feelings considered more valued or more delicate? Why is it that a religious person can't for once, JUST ONCE, put themselves into an atheist shoes and realize the social pressure they are constantly under to compromise the integrity of their thoughts and feelings? Why are the narrow minded rewarded? I do not care what a person believes, as long as they do not harm anyone with those beliefs or force them on someone else. Why can't there be mutual respect and understanding for multiple view-points? Why does everyone need to feel "right" in this situation? It is not a question or "right" and "wrong"; it is a question of opinion, fact, faith, and feeling.
Well, I believe that all parents care about their kids. Even animals protect their offsprings from danger. The least thing you can do for your parent that have being supporting you since you where a child is to understand him not because he is religious but because he is your parent.
Then again I am only asuming, since there is a lot different persons in this world everyone of them is very different from each other.
Apparently now there's something wrong with me, and I'm going to hell and they failed as parents blah blah blah. It's taking everything I have not to cry. (Scratch that: FAIL) They accuse me of being brainwashed because I'm attending college (which is odd because none of my professors are atheists), a geek, and my personal favorite, young and stupid.
Needless to say, they no longer have a son.
That's the best place to start. Make them think that they can talk you down, and use that as subtle leverage to get them to talk to you about it without the overcharged emotion they have now. Use the book as the basis for the discussion, and make them believe that you earnestly want discourse with them about it. If they ask you to read something like the Bible in return, do it (you'll have plenty to argue against if they do, and it will only hurt their cause in the long run).