I like how you completely failed to respond to this, which brings up the fact that no matter how casual the office, that sort of behavior can certainly get you in trouble with the law.
Yes, the brilliant point that you didn't make. What does the law matter if no one reports anything? So it's illegal, big deal. So is speeding.
Even it goes unreported, even if no one in ear shot is offended these comments have lasting damage in any work setting. It is disgusting, dergading, and illegal. I doubt there is any group of people where such comments could be made and no one feels uncomfortable with them (even if they do not speak up). It not only sets the tone for others to make such comments or escalate situations, but it bleeds into other aspects of the business. It is illegal with cause. People shouldn't say this crap beacuse it belittles employees, creates a hiegherarchy, creates a situation of men v. women and attractive women v. unattractive women in the workplace, alienates those that do not take part in such discussions, etc. Regardless of how everyone feels, it isn't appropriate even if it is tolerated. If you kill someone and everyone that knows about it is okay with it and you never get caught, does that make it appropriate? Does that make killing someone "no big deal"?
If nobody in the workplace has a problem with a given comment, then no harassment has occurred. If you make a comment and somebody has a problem with it, there may be harassment.
In any group of mixed personalities, there is a chance that somebody may have a problem with a given comment. Unless you know everybody extremely well, the most logical route to take is to not make comments that may be construed as being harassing. Rightness or wrongness aside, if you're working with a cross-section of various personalities, making any sort of snide, sexist comment is monumentally idiotic.
Your boss is 100% out of line. I might be out of line if I make a smartass comment within earshot of multiple people. If I make a quiet remark to a male coworker, and nobody else hears it, and we grunt in mutual acknowledgment, and my professional conduct is otherwise unchanged, then there is no problem.
If nobody in the workplace has a problem with a given comment, then no harassment has occurred. If you make a comment and somebody has a problem with it, there may be harassment.
In any group of mixed personalities, there is a chance that somebody may have a problem with a given comment. Unless you know everybody extremely well, the most logical route to take is to not make comments that may be construed as being harassing. Rightness or wrongness aside, if you're working with a cross-section of various personalities, making any sort of snide, sexist comment is monumentally idiotic.
Your boss is 100% out of line. I might be out of line if I make a smartass comment within earshot of multiple people. If I make a quiet remark to a male coworker, and we grunt in mutual acknowledgment, and my professional conduct is otherwise unchanged, then there is no problem.
Regardless of the people in ear shot being offended, you have to look at the ripple affect of that kind of sentiment and discussion in a work place. If others get word of the conversation, if those attitudes towards the opposite sex permiate an office, etc.
It's allegedly brilliant, so is that why you didn't even attempt to respond to it at first?
I didn't feel like it was going to help or hurt me either way. The law is the law, not much point in arguing it.
That's a totally awesome way to look at following/breaking the law. Lol.
Awesome, maybe not, but realistic. People don't think about the laws for every thing they do in a day. For example speeding, it's against the law. More importantly it's dangerous, but people do it anyway.
You want to talk about illegal, how about all male lawyers and all female support staff staff. That sounds like sexual discrimination to me.
If others get word of the conversation, if those attitudes towards the opposite sex permiate an office, etc.
I said very specifically that IF nobody else hears and that IF your professional conduct is otherwise unaffected, there is no issue. If either of those statements are not true, then there is a potential problem.
It's one thing for myself and another male coworker to agree that a female coworker is hot and to have a private conversation to that effect. If the people having those conversations allow that attitude to permeate the workplace, and it affects behavior and attitudes towards female employees, then you have a problem. If you can acknowledge that a female coworker is attractive and not have it influence your behavior or attitude towards her, then I fail to see a problem. If nobody's attitude or behavior is affected by a comment, it's not a problem and will not create a problem.
This does not happen most of the time. I would say that in 95% of cases, there is an attitude that permeates a workplace and an attitude of complicity that makes it difficult for people to feel comfortable. There are instances where it's OK - I have a female coworker that asks about my sex life with relative frequency, and discussing it doesn't bother me in the least - but there are many more instances where it is not. That still doesn't mean that you can apply a blanket statement governing all occurrences; it's only a problem when somebody actually feels harassed.
It's allegedly brilliant, so is that why you didn't even attempt to respond to it at first?
I didn't feel like it was going to help or hurt me either way. The law is the law, not much point in arguing it.
That's a totally awesome way to look at following/breaking the law. Lol.
Awesome, maybe not, but realistic. People don't think about the laws for every thing they do in a day. For example speeding, it's against the law. More importantly it's dangerous, but people do it anyway.
You want to talk about illegal, how about all male lawyers and all female support staff staff. That sounds like sexual discrimination to me.
So if you were to rape a woman, and a bunch of guys watched and they were cool with it, and she never reported it, they never reported it, and you never reported it....
...it would be okay??
This is how your logic, your "realistic" viewpoint of the law applies to rape, another point you seem to have blatantly missed despite it being raised to you by two people. You can't hold the law to a double standard like that. If you get caught doing something that you think is alright because you're under the assumption that you weren't going to get caught, what will be your excuse? "Well officer, I didn't think you'd show up, so realistically, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong..."
If those male lawyers were hired on the basis of being male over equal applicants whom just happened to be female, then yes that would be discrimination. But you are only working on an assumption, where Mrs. M's situation actually happened and clearly violates sexual harassment laws. Your assumption-based argument does nothing to lighten that fact.
You want to talk about illegal, how about all male lawyers and all female support staff staff. That sounds like sexual discrimination to me.
Funny you should mention that. One of our major clients insisted that the firm hire a female attorney two years ago. A female attorney was hired last week and starts in a month. She was a law clerk last summer and I know her fairly well. She was outright warned against eating lunch with any of the women in the firm so that she would not be associated with them and then treated in a demeaning manner. Now tell me that isn't all kinds of messed up. This is why these comments are never okay. Even if they are only heard by other men that aren't offended, they permeate throughout all office functions and can grow into terrible situations. Even if someone isn't offended, they should have the balls to say "Hey, that could get you in trouble." or "Don't talk like that at work." Think about it, would you want your wife, daughter, girlfriend, friend, or any woman working at a place where she might be treated that way?
As okay as putting others' life's in danger by speeding I'd say.
OH SNAP!
Funny you should mention that. One of our major clients insisted that the firm hire a female attorney two years ago. A female attorney was hired last week and starts in a month. She was a law clerk last summer and I know her fairly well. She was outright warned against eating lunch with any of the women in the firm so that she would not be associated with them and then treated in a demeaning manner. Now tell me that isn't all kinds of messed up. This is why these comments are never okay. Even if they are only heard by other men that aren't offended, they permeate throughout all office functions and can grow into terrible situations. Even if someone isn't offended, they should have the balls to say "Hey, that could get you in trouble." or "Don't talk like that at work." Think about it, would you want your wife, daughter, girlfriend, friend, or any woman working at a place where she might be treated that way?
@ Nineless: I didn't say anything because I wasn't there. I have outright asked my boss why there are no female lawyers in the firm and he has said "We are working on that." He has finally hired a female attorney, so that point is now (mostly) moot. I have already described the action I would take if I was in the meeting I have asked two of my coworkers that were in the office if they would fill out an anonymous EEOC complaint, which they are both considering. As I was not in the room, there is only so much I can do. I cannot personally confront him as I was not in the room and I am not in a financial situation where I can risk my job based on hearsay (no matter how many witnesses corroborate it).
As all Americans and British know, France is stupid. :P .
Sir have you not watched the first episode of Hetalia? Though France may be stupid, as an Englishman, I have an honor bound duty to disagree with an Americans opinion when it involves a follow European.
You want to talk about illegal, how about all male lawyers and all female support staff staff. That sounds like sexual discrimination to me.
Funny you should mention that. One of our major clients insisted that the firm hire a female attorney two years ago. A female attorney was hired last week and starts in a month. She was a law clerk last summer and I know her fairly well. She was outright warned against eating lunch with any of the women in the firm so that she would not be associated with them and then treated in a demeaning manner. Now tell me that isn't all kinds of messed up. This is why these comments are never okay. Even if they are only heard by other men that aren't offended, they permeate throughout all office functions and can grow into terrible situations. Even if someone isn't offended, they should have the balls to say "Hey, that could get you in trouble." or "Don't talk like that at work." Think about it, would you want your wife, daughter, girlfriend, friend, or any woman working at a place where she might be treated that way?
I think it's the attitudes of the lawyers that are really causing the problems here. They sound like your stereotypical sexist pigs, so naturally sexist pig comments follow. This is obviously a problem, and it should be dealt with. Nobody should have to put up with a harassing attitude.
However, I can make a "sexist pig" comment and not necessarily have the attitude typically associated with it. I'm a heterosexual male, and I sometimes talk to other heterosexual males about the females that I find attractive. This is normal. Carrying an attitude that says that its OK to demean a woman is not normal.
If they have the attitude, sexist commentary will create a hostile work environment. If you do not carry the attitude and don't project it, your commentary will not necessarily cause a problem if it's not directed at someone who would take it as harassment.
As okay as putting others' life's in danger by speeding I'd say.
OH SNAP!
No seriously, answer me. For all of your credit, you've basically just confirmed that you believe it's okay to rape a woman if nobody reports it. And that's appalling.
You want to talk about illegal, how about all male lawyers and all female support staff staff. That sounds like sexual discrimination to me.
Funny you should mention that. One of our major clients insisted that the firm hire a female attorney two years ago. A female attorney was hired last week and starts in a month. She was a law clerk last summer and I know her fairly well. She was outright warned against eating lunch with any of the women in the firm so that she would not be associated with them and then treated in a demeaning manner. Now tell me that isn't all kinds of messed up. This is why these comments are never okay. Even if they are only heard by other men that aren't offended, they permeate throughout all office functions and can grow into terrible situations. Even if someone isn't offended, they should have the balls to say "Hey, that could get you in trouble." or "Don't talk like that at work."
Do you work for the government? if not, wouldn't making someone hire someone based solely on gender is discrimination as well? Maybe your boss has had bad experiences with female lawyers working for him in the past (some sexual harassment lawsuits probably just by reading about his attitude towards women) and wanted to avoid further conflict, isn't he at freedom to decide who works for him?
@ Pete: I agree with you to a point. It is only natural to notice attractive people in your work place; however, making comments about them - no matter how innocently meant - can get back to them and make them uncomfortable if the attention is unwanted. I am not saying that you are a "sexist pig" just that comments like that can an do get out. Telling a comrade that you think a co-worker is attractive is far different than making it clear exactly what you want to do with your co-worker or describing the specific physical attributes that person has that compel you to want to do said things with him/her. It can also be uncomfortable for the person you are mentioning it to if they are particularly shy, homosexual (I have seen a homosexual co-worker effectively outed for not taking part in the usual hardy-hars of other male co-workers), etc.
No seriously, answer me. For all of your credit, you've basically just confirmed that you believe it's okay to rape a woman if nobody reports it. And that's appalling.
In the mind of the rapist it's A-okay, hence why these sorts of things need reporting.
Do you work for the government? if not, wouldn't making someone hire someone based solely on gender is discrimination as well? Maybe your boss has had bad experiences with female lawyers working for him in the past (some sexual harassment lawsuits probably just by reading about his attitude towards women) and wanted to avoid further conflict, isn't he at freedom to decide who works for him?
It's a matter of statistics really. If it's there's only 5 lawyers it's hard to make a case. If there are 40 lawyers then shear statistical probability says there should be women too.
@ Mr. Roboto: Our clients are major companies and they set a high standard for diversity amongst their employees. They didn't have a problem when our office was a very small firm and there were only three attorneys (all male) and two paralegals (all female). Over the past three years, that has more than quadrupled and all of the attorneys are white males and all of the support staff is completely female and contains only one non-white person. As the firm grew, but maintained its lack of diversity, it became glaring. Also, I believe that NYS, if not the U.S. as a whole, requires employers to show some attempt at diversity.
In the mind of the rapist it's A-okay, hence why these sorts of things need reporting.
I'm not asking about the mind of a rapist. I'm asking about the mind of a level-headed, average person. You are not addressing the scenario I presented in which a rape happens, but no one reports it. In that scenario, and that scenario only, does that mean that the rape was an acceptable act?
Continued failure to answer this question will just leave me with my last conclusion about you, and that'll be that.
I'm asking about the mind of a level-headed, average person.
So you are saying that you are not a level-headed, average person? Stop asking these silly questions tsuntsun, they're useless. A place is also not always an office, or a working place, it might as well be a bar (hence why gedavids didn't quote your entire post because he was talking in general, not just about the office).
I'm not asking about the mind of a rapist. I'm asking about the mind of a level-headed, average person. You are not addressing the scenario I presented in which a rape happens, but no one reports it. In that scenario, and that scenarioonly, does that mean that the rape was an acceptable act?
Fuck you! That is the most loaded question in the world! I'm done with this, you've taken this way beyond the bound of any logical hypothetical situation and turned this into a personal attack on my character. Enough is enough.
@I LOST COUNT. - I'm sorry, but I -was- talking about just the office, and so was Mrs. M. The whole conversation was about what's appropriate in the workplace. He shouldn't have taken it out of that context if he didn't want the whole argument taken out of context.
RAAAAAAAAGE!!!11
No need to swear at me, tough guy. You've already proven enough.
The whole conversation was about what's appropriate in the workplace. He shouldn't have taken it out of that context if he didn't want the whole argument taken out of context.
True, but that wasn't what gedavids was commenting on. He was commenting on how some guys amongst guys say some very dumb shit in some places. Yes, he used the quote slightly out of context, but it makes perfect sense in his own right and it sets the backdrop for his comment. Regardless off its original context. On hindsight you should have just used 'workplace' instead of the generic word 'place', but eh, that's talking afterwards.
@Nineless: This thread was turning into a pointless flamewar quite fast enough. Your brand of illogical allegations really aren't needed.
=3= You dropped your sucker, sir. As gedavids also said, tsuntsun posed a loaded question, insulting him. So I nudge back. After all, he's like the only good Republican we have on this forum.
@Nineless: This thread was turning into a pointless flamewar quite fast enough. Your brand of illogical allegations really aren't needed.
=3= You dropped your sucker, sir. As gedavids also said, tsuntsun posed a loaded question, insulting him. So I nudge back. After all, he's like the only good Republican we have on this forum.
Could you at least put some effort into the insult Nineless, I feel like I'm doing all the work here.
I'm asking about the mind of a level-headed, average person.
So you are saying that you are not a level-headed, average person? Stop asking these silly questions tsuntsun, they're useless. A place is also not always an office, or a working place, it might as well be a bar (hence why gedavids didn't quote your entire post because he was talking in general, not just about the office).
Yeah, we were only talking about discussions in the work place about employees or co-workers. If someone wants to go out to a bar and tell their buddies about some chick at work, then they are gross, but they have every right to do that. I was only talking about discussions in the work place. As for the rape scenario, that appears to only be in reference to the ethical distinction that gedavids set forth that if someone isn't caught doing something harmful/illegal, then it is appropriate/acceptable/no big deal. I posed a similar hypothetical about murder. I certainly don't think that gedavids is implying that rape, murder, or even sexual harassment are acceptable regardless of circumstance; however, I wanted to see where and how he draws the line as his argument was minimally fleshed out and relying on the "if a tree falls in the woods" scenario.
Comments
If you kill someone and everyone that knows about it is okay with it and you never get caught, does that make it appropriate? Does that make killing someone "no big deal"?
In any group of mixed personalities, there is a chance that somebody may have a problem with a given comment. Unless you know everybody extremely well, the most logical route to take is to not make comments that may be construed as being harassing. Rightness or wrongness aside, if you're working with a cross-section of various personalities, making any sort of snide, sexist comment is monumentally idiotic.
Your boss is 100% out of line. I might be out of line if I make a smartass comment within earshot of multiple people. If I make a quiet remark to a male coworker, and nobody else hears it, and we grunt in mutual acknowledgment, and my professional conduct is otherwise unchanged, then there is no problem.
You want to talk about illegal, how about all male lawyers and all female support staff staff. That sounds like sexual discrimination to me.
It's one thing for myself and another male coworker to agree that a female coworker is hot and to have a private conversation to that effect. If the people having those conversations allow that attitude to permeate the workplace, and it affects behavior and attitudes towards female employees, then you have a problem. If you can acknowledge that a female coworker is attractive and not have it influence your behavior or attitude towards her, then I fail to see a problem. If nobody's attitude or behavior is affected by a comment, it's not a problem and will not create a problem.
This does not happen most of the time. I would say that in 95% of cases, there is an attitude that permeates a workplace and an attitude of complicity that makes it difficult for people to feel comfortable. There are instances where it's OK - I have a female coworker that asks about my sex life with relative frequency, and discussing it doesn't bother me in the least - but there are many more instances where it is not. That still doesn't mean that you can apply a blanket statement governing all occurrences; it's only a problem when somebody actually feels harassed.
...it would be okay??
This is how your logic, your "realistic" viewpoint of the law applies to rape, another point you seem to have blatantly missed despite it being raised to you by two people. You can't hold the law to a double standard like that. If you get caught doing something that you think is alright because you're under the assumption that you weren't going to get caught, what will be your excuse? "Well officer, I didn't think you'd show up, so realistically, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong..."
If those male lawyers were hired on the basis of being male over equal applicants whom just happened to be female, then yes that would be discrimination. But you are only working on an assumption, where Mrs. M's situation actually happened and clearly violates sexual harassment laws. Your assumption-based argument does nothing to lighten that fact.
EDIT: The internet also no longer knows what 'flamewar' means.
I personally think you should focus on the wider argument and not let someone wrap you up in hypothetical situations.
I have already described the action I would take if I was in the meeting I have asked two of my coworkers that were in the office if they would fill out an anonymous EEOC complaint, which they are both considering. As I was not in the room, there is only so much I can do.
I cannot personally confront him as I was not in the room and I am not in a financial situation where I can risk my job based on hearsay (no matter how many witnesses corroborate it).
BTW England uses metric temperature
However, I can make a "sexist pig" comment and not necessarily have the attitude typically associated with it. I'm a heterosexual male, and I sometimes talk to other heterosexual males about the females that I find attractive. This is normal. Carrying an attitude that says that its OK to demean a woman is not normal.
If they have the attitude, sexist commentary will create a hostile work environment. If you do not carry the attitude and don't project it, your commentary will not necessarily cause a problem if it's not directed at someone who would take it as harassment.
It can also be uncomfortable for the person you are mentioning it to if they are particularly shy, homosexual (I have seen a homosexual co-worker effectively outed for not taking part in the usual hardy-hars of other male co-workers), etc.
Continued failure to answer this question will just leave me with my last conclusion about you, and that'll be that.
Edit: Quote edited to highlight hypocrisy.
As for the rape scenario, that appears to only be in reference to the ethical distinction that gedavids set forth that if someone isn't caught doing something harmful/illegal, then it is appropriate/acceptable/no big deal. I posed a similar hypothetical about murder. I certainly don't think that gedavids is implying that rape, murder, or even sexual harassment are acceptable regardless of circumstance; however, I wanted to see where and how he draws the line as his argument was minimally fleshed out and relying on the "if a tree falls in the woods" scenario.