Wow... OK, fuck this game. There doesn't appear to be any way to actually learn how to play, and most of the strategies are the minutia of clicking that ruins so many other games. Last-hit? I thought we'd moved past that sort of logic...
It seems like a game primarily if managing the minutia of clicking quickly while hanging back and leveling up, hoping that you're leveling faster than the opponents. I couldn't find much strategy beyond that, other than managing the million slightly-crooked items.
It tells that you can't zoom out nearly as far as I would like. It's as though the game is trying to keep you very locally focused. Stand there, kill goons. Kill goons, level up. Level up, buy items, kill more goons. Repeat until you get kicked anyway for not leveling up fast enough.
My hero kept running ahead to auto-attack, and I had to keep constantly clicking to move him back. All of the other heroes seemed to be doing the same thing, as they kept running back and forth over a small area. I felt like I had very little control over what was actually going on. Maybe if, as a team, we could control the goon generators, or give them paths from the start, or something, it would be more fun than a behind-the-lines grind.
The community is more shit-headed than I could have possibly imagined, even from the comments here before I played. The game really seems to encourage a certain bread of shit-head to play. The leaderboard and obsession with stats, ranks, and replays fosters an atmosphere where the uber1337 shit-heads ruin the game for everyone else. I was even kicked from a "noob-only" game almost immediately.
Even if the community weren't shit, however, the game is pretty weak. Your click-timing seems to matter more than any actual strategy. I'll try it some more, but I'm not impressed to start.
It tells that you can't zoom out nearly as far as I would like. It's as though the game is trying to keep you very locally focused. Stand there, kill goons. Kill goons, level up. Level up, buy items, kill more goons. Repeat until you get kicked anyway for not leveling up fast enough.
I agree. It sucks that I can't zoom out further. I have to keep looking at the mini-map as a result. I should be able to zoom to any level. There's just no reason to put an arbitrary limit on this.
My hero kept running ahead to auto-attack, and I had to keep constantly clicking to move him back. All of the other heroes seemed to be doing the same thing, as they kept running back and forth over a small area. I felt like I had very little control over what was actually going on. Maybe if, as a team, we could control the goon generators, or give them paths from the start, orsomething, it would be more fun than a behind-the-lines grind.
There's a stop button, I think it is H, not sure. Basically, in the tutorials I saw on youtube people were pressing it constantly. They were right-clicking a ton as well. The thing that gets me about this is you are only controlling one guy most of the time. In a game like Red Alert, they can't actually expect you to control every unit manually, so they put in AI. In a game like this, you can definitely manually control just one guy. So why does he have any auto-movement or attack at all? Make it one attack per click or something. Hell, give it some Robotron controls, would be more fun. Sometimes you need auto, when looking elsewhere on the map, but let it be a toggle on/off. Also, if the zoom were fixed, you would need less auto when looking around the map.
I feel that the game's only test of skill is simply a test of who can micromange the click-timing, gank the most, and generally play the perfect subgame while waiting for the longer game to finish. If the developers removed the absolute silliness that was "denying" and "last-hit," there wouldn't be much game left. Irrespective of the game itself, the community is unbearable, and I only foresee it worsening. CS kiddies are more pleasant to deal with.
I'll give this another chance once it comes to open beta, but I've basically already written it off as a waste of time.
I feel that the game's only test of skill is simply a test of who can micromange the click-timing, gank the most, and generally play the perfect subgame while waiting for the longer game to finish. If the developers removed the absolute silliness that was "denying" and "last-hit," there wouldn't be much game left. Irrespective of the game itself, the community is unbearable, and I only foresee it worsening. CS kiddies are more pleasant to deal with.
I'll give this another chance once it comes to open beta, but I've basically already written it off as a waste of time.
Like Scott has already said, the only way to enjoy the game is to play it with only your friends/forumites. We had a lot of fun in the games that we played, but the other times I tried to play were ass. When we're all playing, we're not doing hardcore micro and shit, at least not on the level of the general community.
Like Scott has already said, the only way to enjoy the game is to play it with only your friends/forumites. We had a lot of fun in the games that we played, but the other times I tried to play were ass. When we're all playing, we're not doing hardcore micro and shit, at least not on the level of the general community.
Playing with each other solves the problem of shitty community, but it doesn't solve the problem of the game. If nobody "hardcore micros" that's the same as playing Mario Kart DS without snaking. Better off not playing.
When we're all playing, we're not doing hardcore micro and shit, at least not on the level of the general community.
But even then, I don't feel that I'm accomplishing much for most of the game. There's a bunch of mindless grinding for much of the early part, and combat between heroes is even less engaging than WoW combat. I don't feel like most of what I'm doing matters to the outcome (unless I'm doing the fiddly clicking).
I feel that the game's only test of skill is simply a test of who can micromange the click-timing, gank the most, and generally play the perfect subgame while waiting for the longer game to finish..
I honestly don't understand why everyone is so distraught about the level of "Hardcore Micro" in this game. The concept of Last-Hitting is incredibly simple. You kill an Enemy Creep that is about to die by pressing A and targeting the unit. It's not hard at all, it doesn't require any sort of "twitchy clicking", and it isn't essential.
Most of the strategy behind this game relies on knowing when to attack/retreat, when to ditch your lane to aid another hero, when to group up for a push, knowing which lane to reinforce at what time, etc etc etc. There's also maneuvering tactics, creep tactics, guerilla tactics, tower tactics, and more. Farming is ok at the beginning, where everyone is (and should be) reluctant to face off against another hero, but you HAVE to take a more active role once the game progresses.
My hero kept running ahead to auto-attack.
If you press A and select your target, then your hero will ONLY focus on that one target from their current position (unless the Hero is too far away). Your hero kept running ahead to Auto-attack, because you yourself didn't declare a target.
I'm going to concur about the community, though. It is incredibly harsh and absolutely shitty at this point. Ultimately, I found that if you know how to retreat before you're killed, the "Noob-bashers" would lay off of you. Still, I hate how inaccessible they are all making it for people who are starting off.
The concept of Last-Hitting is incredibly simple. You kill an Enemy Creep that is about to die by pressing A and targeting the unit. It's not hard at all, it doesn't require any sort of "twitchy clicking", and it isn't essential.
Then it shouldn't be in the game. Proportional XP and other better mechanisms exist. Can you give me one good reason why this game includes last hits? It serves only to detract in my opinion.
Rym & Scott - The game is not a high-strategy game,
It's not even a low-strategy game. Desktop Tower Defense requires more thought than this does. It's mostly mindless, and I'd frankly rather play WoW combat.
The concept of Last-Hitting is incredibly simple. You kill an Enemy Creep that is about to die by pressing A and targeting the unit. It's not hard at all, it doesn't require any sort of "twitchy clicking", and it isn't essential.
Then it shouldn't be in the game. Proportional XP and other better mechanisms exist. Can you give me one good reason why this game includes last hits? It serves only to detract in my opinion.
Rym & Scott - The game is not a high-strategy game,
It's not even a low-strategy game. Desktop Tower Defense requires more thought than this does. It's mostly mindless, and I'd frankly rather play WoW combat.
How do you not include a last hit mechanic? You only get gold credit for dealing the killing blow, thus it is natural to aim for the final blow to finish a creep off. The only other alternative is to get credit for a kill just for being near it or to just have damaged the creep at all. This would make a really boring game. Last hit is what makes it not boring to at the beginning, as you have to be constantly active. Your ability to last hit your own creeps is also a major factor in the game. Every one of your creep that you kill, is a creep that your opponent wont get gold credit for. This can give you a slight advantage and propagates throughout the game if you can deny your lane opponent from a good early game. This turns the game into an intense battle for creeps while trying to hit each other at the same time.
This game has a large amount of strategy, and not just superficial strategy either. Many decisions must be made on when to push, when to counter a push, when to gank, etc. There is also a huge emphasis on team play and cooperation. The skill cap for this game is also very high, there is so much to learn and do. The camera angle is really close, but that is another aspect of the game. Ganks and team fights are a large part of the game and if the camera angle is too far out, they become much harder to execute. This force you to be more alert and adds another layer of skill.
I have been playing Dota/HoN for at least 7 years now, and it is definitely one of the best games in terms of skill, strategy, competitiveness, and fun. However, I will say that the community is definitely the absolute worse of any community and that the learning curve is ridiculously high. The HoN beta does not have a tutorial yet so the best way to start is to play with someone who will show you what to do until you can hold of on your own. I am willing to say that the learning curve of this game is the highest learning curve of any multiplayer game and most of the strategy and depth that this game has to offer will not be apparent unless you can pass the initial curve. I hope you guys will give this more of a try and play with some friends until you learn more about the game. I haven't played natural selection much, but it seems that this game to me is the same as natural selection to R&S.; If you can get over the frustration at the start, then you will start to realize how great this game is.
I am a little late to this conversation, but if anyone here is still playing, let me know. I'd love to play with some GN listeners. My tag on HoN is iruul and I also have some beta keys if anyone wants. I can also help you out if you are new and want to learn.
How do you not include a last hit mechanic? You only get gold credit for dealing the killing blow, thus it is natural to aim for the final blow to finish a creep off. The only other alternative is to get credit for a kill just for being near it or to just have damaged the creep at all. This would make a really boring game. Last hit is what makes it not boring to at the beginning, as you have to be constantly active. Your ability to last hit your own creeps is also a major factor in the game. Every one of your creep that you kill, is a creep that your opponent wont get gold credit for. This can give you a slight advantage and propagates throughout the game if you can deny your lane opponent from a good early game. This turns the game into an intense battle for creeps while trying to hit each other at the same time.
This is fiddly and annoying. The last hit mechanic is completely moronic. If it's better to get a last hit, why doesn't the automatic attack automatically go for last-hits? It's just mindless tedious busy-work to keep you clicking, not anything to do with strategy.
This game is a game of knowledge, not of skill. It is often difficult for people to tell the difference.
A game of knowledge is a game where all you need to do is know something. A game of skill, you actually have to have some magnitude of ability of execution.
Think about baseball for example. In any possible situation in a baseball game, let's say I know the exact best thing to do. That doesn't matter does it? It doesn't matter because the players have to be able to do that thing. The pitcher has to be able to throw the pitch perfectly. The hitter has to swing perfectly. The fielders have to field perfectly. Knowing is not enough.
Think about rock paper scissors. Obviously it is a game of randomness, because there is no way you can know what your opponent is going to do. But what if your opponent throws first? You get to see that they are going to throw rock. Well, then all that determines whether you win or lose is whether or not you know that paper beats rock, scissor beats paper, and rock beats scissor. If you know those three things, you will be perfect at RPS, assuming you get to see your opponenent's throws.
Now look at this chart.
It's a rock-paper-scissors game with 25 options. Pretend you are playing this game against someone. They always throw first, so you can see their move. You get to see that they are throwing "alien" before you throw. However, you do not have the chart memorized. You don't remember what beats alien. If you did memorize the chart, you would win every time. But because you didn't memorize it, winning and losing are going to be based on luck and knowledge, not skill.
That is what HoN/DotA is like. The good players don't have more skills than the bad players. It's simply that they've memorized this incredibly huge chart of items, heros, and abilities. They can look at the screen, they can recognize a hero just by looking at them, and recognize what skills and items they are using. That isn't skill, that's knowledge. It is largely a knowledge game.
Now, maybe when you have people competing who all have equal knowledge, there is some element of skill, luck, teamwork, etc. that comes into play. But for someone who is new, no matter their skill or strategy they can not win against someone who has memorized all this crap. It is also not worth my time, or I imagine most other people's time, to memorize all that stuff. It's also not fun to deal with the mindless manual labor parts of the game, such as last-hitting.
Moral of the story yet again: Actually learning about games ruins fun in most games as it exposes their hidden shittiness.
How do you not include a last hit mechanic? You only get gold credit for dealing the killing blow, thus it is natural to aim for the final blow to finish a creep off. The only other alternative is to get credit for a kill just for being near it or to just have damaged the creep at all. This would make a really boring game. Last hit is what makes it not boring to at the beginning, as you have to be constantly active. Your ability to last hit your own creeps is also a major factor in the game. Every one of your creep that you kill, is a creep that your opponent wont get gold credit for. This can give you a slight advantage and propagates throughout the game if you can deny your lane opponent from a good early game. This turns the game into an intense battle for creeps while trying to hit each other at the same time.
This is fiddly and annoying. The last hit mechanic is completely moronic. If it's better to get a last hit, why doesn't the automatic attack automatically go for last-hits? It's just mindless tedious busy-work to keep you clicking, not anything to do with strategy.
This game is a game of knowledge, not of skill. It is often difficult for people to tell the difference.
A game of knowledge is a game where all you need to do is know something. A game of skill, you actually have to have some magnitude of ability of execution.
Think about baseball for example. In any possible situation in a baseball game, let's say I know the exact best thing to do. That doesn't matter does it? It doesn't matter because the players have to be able to do that thing. The pitcher has to be able to throw the pitch perfectly. The hitter has to swing perfectly. The fielders have to field perfectly. Knowing is not enough.
Think about rock paper scissors. Obviously it is a game of randomness, because there is no way you can know what your opponent is going to do. But what if your opponent throws first? You get to see that they are going to throw rock. Well, then all that determines whether you win or lose is whether or not you know that paper beats rock, scissor beats paper, and rock beats scissor. If you know those three things, you will be perfect at RPS, assuming you get to see your opponenent's throws.
Now look at this chart.
It's a rock-paper-scissors game with 25 options. Pretend you are playing this game against someone. They always throw first, so you can see their move. You get to see that they are throwing "alien" before you throw. However, you do not have the chart memorized. You don't remember what beats alien. If you did memorize the chart, you would win every time. But because you didn't memorize it, winning and losing are going to be based on luck and knowledge, not skill.
That is what HoN/DotA is like. The good players don't have more skills than the bad players. It's simply that they've memorized this incredibly huge chart of items, heros, and abilities. They can look at the screen, they can recognize a hero just by looking at them, and recognize what skills and items they are using. That isn't skill, that's knowledge. It is largely a knowledge game.
Now, maybe when you have people competing who all have equal knowledge, there is some element of skill, luck, teamwork, etc. that comes into play. But for someone who is new, no matter their skill or strategy they can not win against someone who has memorized all this crap. It is also not worth my time, or I imagine most other people's time, to memorize all that stuff. It's also not fun to deal with the mindless manual labor parts of the game, such as last-hitting.
Moral of the story yet again: Actually learning about games ruins fun in most games as it exposes their hidden shittiness.
Its better in CS to get headshots, why not let the AI do it for you? Last hitting takes practice. Its not just you trying to last hit, you are battling your opponent for the last hit. You can do it perfectly by yourself but when faced against someone better than you, they will get more kills than you. It is a battle of timing and prediction, higher level players can "fake" an attack to throw their opponents timing off. There is a subtle art to it.
You are right in that there is a lot of "knowledge" to this game. There are a lot of things to learn, and knowing more than your opponent does give you an advantage, but how is this different than any other game? Knowing better build order and tactics in an RTS will give you an advantage, knowing more combos and the attack speed of moves will give you an advantage in a fighting game, knowing the terrain and abilities of different guns gives you and advantage in a shooter. Just because you know every thing about the game does not mean you can execute them. This is where skill comes into play. In a heated battle, it takes quick thinking to play optimally and make the right decisions. This is what transitions it from a shallow to a deep game.
I do admit that this game has a lot more "memorizing" than most other games. In order to play effectively you have to know the items, each hero, their abilities, the game mechanics, etc. Only then can the skill, teamwork, etc be realized to the full potential. This is why I say that this game has a gigantic learning curve. I think you are approaching this game the wrong way. You want to learn it like a board game. You want to sit down, learn all the rules, then play and immediately develop your strategy. You can not just read about each hero, ability, item, etc as there are way too many. The best way to learn is to play with people who are willing to help you. You do not need to know every detail of everything right off the bat. In 1 game you are exposed to 10 heroes. Playing one game should familiarize you with each of those. You may not know that this hero has a nuke that does 500 damage with a 30 sec cooldown for 200 mana, but you will remember that he has a move that can hit you for damage from afar. This is all you need to know to transition from a newbie. In otherwords, as you play you will naturally learn everything, it doesn't take any effort to memorize things before hand.
This game has a special place in my life and my fear is that when this is released to the public, the majority of the players will react the same as you do. I have introduced this game to a few people and many of them are not able to get into it because they can not get over the initial learning curve. The high learning curve, shitty community, and lack of the ability to have fun unless you are already good deters many from playing. You are very correct in that learning about the game is not fun at all, but not because the game itself is bad, it is just that it is so newbie-unfriendly. I really hate it when people make statements about games they do not know much about. I know the difference between actual strategy and superficial ones, and there is indeed plenty of strategy in this. Two people with equal skill and knowledge play, but the one that is more cunning and strategic will have an advantage. There isn't much use giving example though, if you dont know more about the game. I admit, however, that your time is most likely better spent on something that pays off from the start with less frustration. However, this game is still in beta. Eventually it will have a full blown newbie friendly tutorial. There will also be an automated matchmaking system. It will pair you up with people your own skill level that wont complain and ridicule you and hopefully you will give it another try, if not now, but then. This would be a perfect game for some GN gaming together.
Even if this game does have some light at the end of the tunnel, it just isn't worth it. It's the same old argument that is made for WoW or GaoGaiGar. WoW is a good game, once you get to the high levels! GaoGaiGar is a good anime, once you get past all the early episodes!
It doesn't matter how good it is at the end if we have to wade through shit to get there. There's plenty of other games out there that are good right from the beginning. L4D2 is out. NS2 is coming. Super Mario Bros. Wii just came out. Spirit Tracks is almost here. There's really no reason to even bother with this.
Maybe if I was still a punk kid this game would be great. Kids have a lot of boredom, and need to find things to sink their time into. Now that I have a job, I need to save time, not find new ways to waste it. Even now that I am relatively broke, I will gladly spend money to save time. The result is that this game just really has no audience.
And last-hitting is still really stupid. The quick-click game is not a fun game.
Silly me. I'm still looking for a beta key to HoN to compare this verses my long time of gaming the wc3 mod Dota: Allstars.
Interesting enough. After reading most of the preceding posts, Rym raises valid points about this type of gaming.
HoN and DotA are games that focus on: Playing 45-60mins depending on mode Require learning a decent amount of knowledge of how heros, items and mechanics of how things in the games work. Clicking for last hits, denying creeps and hoping your team has some sense of teamwork or balance.
Mainly, this type of game is really focused in trying to capture the RTS click gamer who has clan buddies or friends to game. As a big player of Starcraft, Warcraft, and DotA, I'm rather pleased with something new to the table. For others, it will simply be something they will taste and vehemently spit out.
I'm pretty sure this type of game is a acquired taste that some people like. Not a general all round crowd pleaser.
So, if you are not that RTS click gamer. I'd say stick with what you like rather then try to swallow poison and hope for the best. RTS tends to favor more the person with APM, knowledge and wisdom in that particular game so they can properly act, react and plan accordingly. Lacking any tends to bring down the team, which means a quick loss for your side.
Last hitting while a being a silly game mechanism is somewhat core to DotA and HoN. While tedious to do, its not something that needs to be kept up all game like in Starcraft APM. Usually its only needed to be done for 20-30 mins to better farm then letting your hero just attack normally.
Last hitting while a being a silly game mechanism is somewhat core to DotA and HoN.
That's like saying that chamber blocking is core to NS. Yes, it was a glitchy or bad gameplay element that was the style of the times, and people became used to it and (rightfully) planned their strategies around it. But, to expect the NS team to include such an element in the new game is laughable.
Last hitting is integral to the game only because they're basically making the exact same game as the old one. They're codifying what was originally just a glitchy aspect of the game due to the way it was made. It's the situation where the fans grow up to make the games, and we can see the same thing in anime.
DotA was a game that could only be fun as it was in the time that it was played. The core fun of the game was the social aspect, jumping (ganking) a straggling player on the other side en masse, and pulling crazy bullshit against your friends. The glitchy aspects of the game were part of the exploration and novelty of a mod. Strategies emerged over time as people better understood how the game actually worked, but those strategies weren't fun to implement. Gaming moved on, and DotA obviously didn't. No one expected it to.
So now, pulling a Nintendo, fans are re-making the game, re-implementing the old glitchy behavior and completely missing the point of what made the original game fun. They're focusing on the trivial gameplay elements and the grind, when they should be focusing on lane-choosing and player interaction. They're doing all the wrong things right, and they're fostering what it shaping up to be one of the most shit-headed online game communities the world has ever seen.
If they'd drop the shackles imposed by the fanbase of DotA, they could make an amazing game true not to the broken mechanics of DotA, but to the spirit of DotA. Instead, they're embracing the "hardcore DotA" community, and they're going down the road that Tribes 2 followed so long ago.
This is what you are doing with your life, and enjoying? Deriding people that enjoy things that you don't? Seriously?
I question why they enjoy these things, as I don't really believe that they understand it themselves. It's my opinion that these games are, from multiple perspectives, crap. If someone uses a grind like that has a point in their defense of a game's merits, then it's fair game for scrutiny.
Did anyone read the article "Can videogames be our friends?" which appeared on Kotaku a while ago? One point he raised was that of 'The everything disease.' where people making games think that what made a game great was everything in it without analysing which parts could or should be removed.
This is what you are doing with your life, and enjoying? Deriding people that enjoy things that you don't? Seriously?
I question why they enjoy these things, as I don't really believe that they understand it themselves. It's my opinion that these games are, from multiple perspectives, crap. If someone uses a grind like that has a point in their defense of a game's merits, then it's fair game for scrutiny.
Why do you assume that they do not understand them? A person can understand that something is crap, or at least crap in a certain aspect or from a given perspective, and still enjoy them. You yourself have enjoyed some stuff that I question the merit of, but I do not assume that you do not understand the material you are consuming nor do I assume that you are an idiot for liking it. Scrutinizing the game and scrutinizing the people are two different matters.
Scrutinizing the game and scrutinizing the people are two different matters.
Measure is unceasing. Any scrutiny of a person's likes and dislikes includes an obligatory scrutiny of their person.
Rym, taking one minor aspect of a person's taste and making massive assumptions about them as people is just myopic, lazy, superior, and betrays a bias akin to bigotry. Don't throw quotes from a novel around and then hide behind it. You aren't scrutinizing individuals based on their full merit, you are taking one leisure time activity and allowing that one aspect to define your vision of the person. This isn't a religious belief, this isn't a political opinion, this does not speak to their greater moral character - this is enjoying clicking on different things than you enjoy clicking on.
This is what you are doing with your life, and enjoying? Deriding people that enjoy things that you don't? Seriously?
I question why they enjoy these things, as I don't really believe that they understand it themselves. It's my opinion that these games are, from multiple perspectives, crap. If someone uses a grind like that has a point in their defense of a game's merits, then it's fair game for scrutiny.
Is it okay for someone to continue enjoying something that is stupid or pointless? If he likes it, and he has fun doing it, let him do it. He's getting enjoyment out of it.
This is what you are doing with your life, and enjoying? Deriding people that enjoy things that you don't? Seriously?
I question why they enjoy these things, as I don't really believe that they understand it themselves. It's my opinion that these games are, from multiple perspectives, crap. If someone uses a grind like that has a point in their defense of a game's merits, then it's fair game for scrutiny.
Is it okay for someone to continue enjoying something that is stupid or pointless? If he likes it, and he has fun doing it, let him do it. He's getting enjoyment out of it.
When it starts to hurt other people it becomes a problem. Also, I would argue that it hurts/damages Scott because it limits his view of others, pushes them away, and keeps him an egomaniac that is difficult to get to know, difficult to like, and allows for even some of his closest friends wonder if he respects them on any level. Such extreme, harsh, and demeaning points of views and comments can and do cause a very limited world-view and an inability to accept others that are different.
Comments
It tells that you can't zoom out nearly as far as I would like. It's as though the game is trying to keep you very locally focused. Stand there, kill goons. Kill goons, level up. Level up, buy items, kill more goons. Repeat until you get kicked anyway for not leveling up fast enough.
My hero kept running ahead to auto-attack, and I had to keep constantly clicking to move him back. All of the other heroes seemed to be doing the same thing, as they kept running back and forth over a small area. I felt like I had very little control over what was actually going on. Maybe if, as a team, we could control the goon generators, or give them paths from the start, or something, it would be more fun than a behind-the-lines grind.
The community is more shit-headed than I could have possibly imagined, even from the comments here before I played. The game really seems to encourage a certain bread of shit-head to play. The leaderboard and obsession with stats, ranks, and replays fosters an atmosphere where the uber1337 shit-heads ruin the game for everyone else. I was even kicked from a "noob-only" game almost immediately.
Even if the community weren't shit, however, the game is pretty weak. Your click-timing seems to matter more than any actual strategy. I'll try it some more, but I'm not impressed to start.
I'll give this another chance once it comes to open beta, but I've basically already written it off as a waste of time.
Most of the strategy behind this game relies on knowing when to attack/retreat, when to ditch your lane to aid another hero, when to group up for a push, knowing which lane to reinforce at what time, etc etc etc. There's also maneuvering tactics, creep tactics, guerilla tactics, tower tactics, and more. Farming is ok at the beginning, where everyone is (and should be) reluctant to face off against another hero, but you HAVE to take a more active role once the game progresses. If you press A and select your target, then your hero will ONLY focus on that one target from their current position (unless the Hero is too far away). Your hero kept running ahead to Auto-attack, because you yourself didn't declare a target.
I'm going to concur about the community, though. It is incredibly harsh and absolutely shitty at this point. Ultimately, I found that if you know how to retreat before you're killed, the "Noob-bashers" would lay off of you. Still, I hate how inaccessible they are all making it for people who are starting off.
This game has a large amount of strategy, and not just superficial strategy either. Many decisions must be made on when to push, when to counter a push, when to gank, etc. There is also a huge emphasis on team play and cooperation. The skill cap for this game is also very high, there is so much to learn and do. The camera angle is really close, but that is another aspect of the game. Ganks and team fights are a large part of the game and if the camera angle is too far out, they become much harder to execute. This force you to be more alert and adds another layer of skill.
I have been playing Dota/HoN for at least 7 years now, and it is definitely one of the best games in terms of skill, strategy, competitiveness, and fun. However, I will say that the community is definitely the absolute worse of any community and that the learning curve is ridiculously high. The HoN beta does not have a tutorial yet so the best way to start is to play with someone who will show you what to do until you can hold of on your own. I am willing to say that the learning curve of this game is the highest learning curve of any multiplayer game and most of the strategy and depth that this game has to offer will not be apparent unless you can pass the initial curve. I hope you guys will give this more of a try and play with some friends until you learn more about the game. I haven't played natural selection much, but it seems that this game to me is the same as natural selection to R&S.; If you can get over the frustration at the start, then you will start to realize how great this game is.
I am a little late to this conversation, but if anyone here is still playing, let me know. I'd love to play with some GN listeners. My tag on HoN is iruul and I also have some beta keys if anyone wants. I can also help you out if you are new and want to learn.
This game is a game of knowledge, not of skill. It is often difficult for people to tell the difference.
A game of knowledge is a game where all you need to do is know something. A game of skill, you actually have to have some magnitude of ability of execution.
Think about baseball for example. In any possible situation in a baseball game, let's say I know the exact best thing to do. That doesn't matter does it? It doesn't matter because the players have to be able to do that thing. The pitcher has to be able to throw the pitch perfectly. The hitter has to swing perfectly. The fielders have to field perfectly. Knowing is not enough.
Think about rock paper scissors. Obviously it is a game of randomness, because there is no way you can know what your opponent is going to do. But what if your opponent throws first? You get to see that they are going to throw rock. Well, then all that determines whether you win or lose is whether or not you know that paper beats rock, scissor beats paper, and rock beats scissor. If you know those three things, you will be perfect at RPS, assuming you get to see your opponenent's throws.
Now look at this chart.
It's a rock-paper-scissors game with 25 options. Pretend you are playing this game against someone. They always throw first, so you can see their move. You get to see that they are throwing "alien" before you throw. However, you do not have the chart memorized. You don't remember what beats alien. If you did memorize the chart, you would win every time. But because you didn't memorize it, winning and losing are going to be based on luck and knowledge, not skill.
That is what HoN/DotA is like. The good players don't have more skills than the bad players. It's simply that they've memorized this incredibly huge chart of items, heros, and abilities. They can look at the screen, they can recognize a hero just by looking at them, and recognize what skills and items they are using. That isn't skill, that's knowledge. It is largely a knowledge game.
Now, maybe when you have people competing who all have equal knowledge, there is some element of skill, luck, teamwork, etc. that comes into play. But for someone who is new, no matter their skill or strategy they can not win against someone who has memorized all this crap. It is also not worth my time, or I imagine most other people's time, to memorize all that stuff. It's also not fun to deal with the mindless manual labor parts of the game, such as last-hitting.
Moral of the story yet again: Actually learning about games ruins fun in most games as it exposes their hidden shittiness.
You are right in that there is a lot of "knowledge" to this game. There are a lot of things to learn, and knowing more than your opponent does give you an advantage, but how is this different than any other game? Knowing better build order and tactics in an RTS will give you an advantage, knowing more combos and the attack speed of moves will give you an advantage in a fighting game, knowing the terrain and abilities of different guns gives you and advantage in a shooter. Just because you know every thing about the game does not mean you can execute them. This is where skill comes into play. In a heated battle, it takes quick thinking to play optimally and make the right decisions. This is what transitions it from a shallow to a deep game.
I do admit that this game has a lot more "memorizing" than most other games. In order to play effectively you have to know the items, each hero, their abilities, the game mechanics, etc. Only then can the skill, teamwork, etc be realized to the full potential. This is why I say that this game has a gigantic learning curve. I think you are approaching this game the wrong way. You want to learn it like a board game. You want to sit down, learn all the rules, then play and immediately develop your strategy. You can not just read about each hero, ability, item, etc as there are way too many. The best way to learn is to play with people who are willing to help you. You do not need to know every detail of everything right off the bat. In 1 game you are exposed to 10 heroes. Playing one game should familiarize you with each of those. You may not know that this hero has a nuke that does 500 damage with a 30 sec cooldown for 200 mana, but you will remember that he has a move that can hit you for damage from afar. This is all you need to know to transition from a newbie. In otherwords, as you play you will naturally learn everything, it doesn't take any effort to memorize things before hand.
This game has a special place in my life and my fear is that when this is released to the public, the majority of the players will react the same as you do. I have introduced this game to a few people and many of them are not able to get into it because they can not get over the initial learning curve. The high learning curve, shitty community, and lack of the ability to have fun unless you are already good deters many from playing. You are very correct in that learning about the game is not fun at all, but not because the game itself is bad, it is just that it is so newbie-unfriendly. I really hate it when people make statements about games they do not know much about. I know the difference between actual strategy and superficial ones, and there is indeed plenty of strategy in this. Two people with equal skill and knowledge play, but the one that is more cunning and strategic will have an advantage. There isn't much use giving example though, if you dont know more about the game. I admit, however, that your time is most likely better spent on something that pays off from the start with less frustration. However, this game is still in beta. Eventually it will have a full blown newbie friendly tutorial. There will also be an automated matchmaking system. It will pair you up with people your own skill level that wont complain and ridicule you and hopefully you will give it another try, if not now, but then. This would be a perfect game for some GN gaming together.
It doesn't matter how good it is at the end if we have to wade through shit to get there. There's plenty of other games out there that are good right from the beginning. L4D2 is out. NS2 is coming. Super Mario Bros. Wii just came out. Spirit Tracks is almost here. There's really no reason to even bother with this.
Maybe if I was still a punk kid this game would be great. Kids have a lot of boredom, and need to find things to sink their time into. Now that I have a job, I need to save time, not find new ways to waste it. Even now that I am relatively broke, I will gladly spend money to save time. The result is that this game just really has no audience.
And last-hitting is still really stupid. The quick-click game is not a fun game.
Silly me. I'm still looking for a beta key to HoN to compare this verses my long time of gaming the wc3 mod Dota: Allstars.
Interesting enough. After reading most of the preceding posts, Rym raises valid points about this type of gaming.
HoN and DotA are games that focus on:
Playing 45-60mins depending on mode
Require learning a decent amount of knowledge of how heros, items and mechanics of how things in the games work.
Clicking for last hits, denying creeps and hoping your team has some sense of teamwork or balance.
Mainly, this type of game is really focused in trying to capture the RTS click gamer who has clan buddies or friends to game. As a big player of Starcraft, Warcraft, and DotA, I'm rather pleased with something new to the table. For others, it will simply be something they will taste and vehemently spit out.
I'm pretty sure this type of game is a acquired taste that some people like. Not a general all round crowd pleaser.
So, if you are not that RTS click gamer. I'd say stick with what you like rather then try to swallow poison and hope for the best. RTS tends to favor more the person with APM, knowledge and wisdom in that particular game so they can properly act, react and plan accordingly. Lacking any tends to bring down the team, which means a quick loss for your side.
Last hitting while a being a silly game mechanism is somewhat core to DotA and HoN. While tedious to do, its not something that needs to be kept up all game like in Starcraft APM. Usually its only needed to be done for 20-30 mins to better farm then letting your hero just attack normally.
Last hitting is integral to the game only because they're basically making the exact same game as the old one. They're codifying what was originally just a glitchy aspect of the game due to the way it was made. It's the situation where the fans grow up to make the games, and we can see the same thing in anime.
DotA was a game that could only be fun as it was in the time that it was played. The core fun of the game was the social aspect, jumping (ganking) a straggling player on the other side en masse, and pulling crazy bullshit against your friends. The glitchy aspects of the game were part of the exploration and novelty of a mod. Strategies emerged over time as people better understood how the game actually worked, but those strategies weren't fun to implement. Gaming moved on, and DotA obviously didn't. No one expected it to.
So now, pulling a Nintendo, fans are re-making the game, re-implementing the old glitchy behavior and completely missing the point of what made the original game fun. They're focusing on the trivial gameplay elements and the grind, when they should be focusing on lane-choosing and player interaction. They're doing all the wrong things right, and they're fostering what it shaping up to be one of the most shit-headed online game communities the world has ever seen.
If they'd drop the shackles imposed by the fanbase of DotA, they could make an amazing game true not to the broken mechanics of DotA, but to the spirit of DotA. Instead, they're embracing the "hardcore DotA" community, and they're going down the road that Tribes 2 followed so long ago.
Scrutinizing the game and scrutinizing the people are two different matters.
Any scrutiny of a person's likes and dislikes includes an obligatory scrutiny of their person.
Don't throw quotes from a novel around and then hide behind it. You aren't scrutinizing individuals based on their full merit, you are taking one leisure time activity and allowing that one aspect to define your vision of the person. This isn't a religious belief, this isn't a political opinion, this does not speak to their greater moral character - this is enjoying clicking on different things than you enjoy clicking on.
Also, I would argue that it hurts/damages Scott because it limits his view of others, pushes them away, and keeps him an egomaniac that is difficult to get to know, difficult to like, and allows for even some of his closest friends wonder if he respects them on any level.
Such extreme, harsh, and demeaning points of views and comments can and do cause a very limited world-view and an inability to accept others that are different.