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The Martial Arts Thread
So as not to completely hijack the "Boo Yah!" thread with martial arts discussion and debate -- use this thread to discuss martial arts, proclaim your accomplishments, and ask questions.
Anyway, continuing from here:
Anyway, that wasn't a statement of my opinion, it was a paraphrase of someone else's. I don't know much about aikido, but I haven't seen anything that gives me any confidence in it.
What are the "ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves" in BJJ that you're talking about? Certainly there are techniques (certain guards, for instance) that you'd only want to use in a sport BJJ context -- that's why no one uses those techniques in MMA. Helio Gracie himself has spoken out against the proliferation of "sport" techniques in BJJ. They're a small part of the art -- a far cry from your 3/4 standard. Regardless, BJJ has been proven effective over and over again, for over 70 years, in fights with the barest of rules.
Anyway, continuing from here:
Posted By: ChurbaName one Older art (20th century or before) that isn't 3/4 bullshit that you never use, and if you say BJJ, I'll call you a filthy liar, because I've seen the ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves in that just as much as anything else.What if I were to just say that older arts are bullshit? Anyway, judo predates the 20th century, and it would fit my definition of "not bullshit". Also, muay thai, boxing, and wrestling. I'm not claiming that any of these arts are sufficient in and of themselves for any kind of conflict you might find yourself in, or that all of their techniques are useful in most situations -- only that hard sparring and full-contact competition has boiled all the hoodoo out of them, and you're left only with techniques that actually work against trained, fully-resisting opponents.
Anyway, that wasn't a statement of my opinion, it was a paraphrase of someone else's. I don't know much about aikido, but I haven't seen anything that gives me any confidence in it.
What are the "ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves" in BJJ that you're talking about? Certainly there are techniques (certain guards, for instance) that you'd only want to use in a sport BJJ context -- that's why no one uses those techniques in MMA. Helio Gracie himself has spoken out against the proliferation of "sport" techniques in BJJ. They're a small part of the art -- a far cry from your 3/4 standard. Regardless, BJJ has been proven effective over and over again, for over 70 years, in fights with the barest of rules.
Comments
Although, I would argue that almost any martial art, no matter what techniques are involved, holds some practicality when it comes to self defence. If I hadn't done TKD for so long I wouldn't have the confidence, reflexes, instincts, strength, and agility I have now. I imagine that counts for something, though I admit I've never actually been in a real fight before. I've managed to diffuse almost every potentially violent situation I've been in either by intimidation, confidence, or diplomacy.
And, to proclaim my accomplishments real quick, I've studied and practised TKD for ten years. After three years I got my deputy first degree black belt (deputy because I was under the age of 13), two years later I got my second degree, and I'll probably have a third soon enough. I've been at the top of my class pretty much the entire time, and out of the dozen or so competitions I've participated in I've come in second twice and third once, with all the others being first place.
I don't know much about the training and competition in TKD -- I've seen some clips of competition, and they're obviously going hard. How do they do sparring and competition at your school? A quick survey of the Wikipedia article on olympic TKD competition seems to indicate that it's point-based rather than, I guess you'd say "effect-based". That kinda concerns me -- it seems like the sort of thing that allows or encourages ineffective techniques to creep into the art. Certainly, most any art will give you fitness, reflexes, flexibility, confidence, etc. But I worry about people who've learned ridiculous bullshit that doesn't work getting themselves seriously hurt if they try it against a real attacker and it doesn't have the effect they're counting on. Like, "dim mak" for instance:
I play 3 Club Combat. It's a martial art based on juggling. Put simply, the last person juggling wins. When I'm in Berlin, I fight with others at least twice a week, normally playing team games, two on two or three on three. And, because we train all the time, Berlin players are generally the best who compete at the national and international events.
There are three main types of three club combat.
1.
The first is group combat, where it's just a huge melee of jugglers, and it's every man/woman for himself/herself. You can play this with three people, 30 people (at small juggling events), or 300 people (at the European Juggling Conventions). With a small number of people you can have "first to five wins" sessions, which makes it more interesting than just playing a series of one-off games.
At the larger events, during the "official" tournament, to counter the randomness of action in the large, crowded games, we have four rounds of open group games, then take the winners of the four games and put them into a four person final.
In 2009, I got through to the four person final, but was knocked out by Jochen, another Berlin juggler, who was the overall winner. This was the size of the match in 2009:
Here's a video of the forth round of the four open games at the EJC in 2008. I went on to win the four person final:
But at conventions it's not all about the "official" games; the more interesting sessions take place late at night. As soon as one game finishes, the next begins! And as you can play as long as you want, and drop out at any time, most nights the combat sessions last four or five hours. I and many others often play for over three hours at a time.
2.
One on one tournaments (or "Celebrity Fight Nights") are events that normally last an hour and a half. Eight or twelve jugglers are invited to take part, and it's knockout tournament, sometimes with group stages for the first rounds. This event is good entertainment for the audience, as the competitors play up their characters, WWE style, but the skill on display is as high as it gets. I've yet to win an EJC title, but have taken second place in four out of the last five EJC tournaments. I've lost to Jay Gilligan (the best player from America) twice and Jochen Pfeiffer (the best player from Germany) twice. Winning at the EJC is one of my life goals for 2010, although both Jay and Jochen will probably be there. Come to think of it, of the 20 or so Fight Nights I've played in, there have only been half a dozen individual winners. Jay Gilligan, Jochen Pfeiffer, Aaron Greg (from Canada), myself, Manu Laude (France), Florian Marienfeld (Berlin)... maybe one other person who has slipped my mind.
Here's me and Jochen in the final round at the EJC 2009. We meet in final rounds quite often, and I've yet to beat him.
3.
The last kind of combat is Team Combat, where jugglers go two on two or three on three. There aren't that many team events organized, as group and one on one tournaments are much easier to plan, but if you have four or six jugglers, team combat is by far the most interesting and tactical form of combat. Here's a video of me and Flo vs JJ and DJ. It's a few years old, but is the best breakdown of what can happen during a team combat match.
Combat is one of my favorite things about juggling, and juggling is my favorite hobby, as well as being my job. It has absolutely no use in a real fight, but it is a very complex and stupidly high skilled martial art.
@Churba -- you didn't answer my question regarding the "ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves" in BJJ. The choice of the word "ceremonial" strikes me as especially weird, because I can't think of an art with less ceremony than BJJ without going to western arts like boxing and wrestling.
Or like this:
Or somewhere in between the two.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that 3 Club Combat is awesome and makes me want to learn how to juggle.
Edit - Though, why don't you compare it to western arts, like boxing or wrestling? It's not like they don't have a place in the martial arts spectrum.
Double Edit - Though, It appears you answer your own question. And to add a snide comment just so you know it's me - For thousands of years, in fights with little to no rules, So has Hitting people with the biggest hunk of wood you can effectively swing.
In fact, I'm looking up training centers for KM as we speak so that I can take lessons in the summer. I've finally lost enough weight that mastering a discipline isn't physically beyond my reach.
So: If you just want to learn something that's fun, try any of those. If you want something that's probably somewhat effective in certain scenarios, try Krav. If you want to actually learn to fight, pick a combat sport.
Systema is something I could get behind, but like Krav Maga, it's hard to find a training center for.