Huh? Was this is a continuation of something I was not privy to?
Silat works well against arts that are based around or heavily use kicking techniques - one technique is, to give you the cliffnotes version, block, grab leg, lock the joint, elbow to the junk, elbow to the throat, either use leverage to throw them to the floor or a leg sweep+leverage to slam the opponent to the floor, and then either stomp, kick, or lay a falling punch on them.
Edit - and of course, if they are desperate try to use you as a base for a kick with their support leg, you simply slam them to the floor using the leverage from their other leg, and smack them about from there.
Silat works well against arts that are based around or heavily use kicking techniques - one technique is, to give you the cliffnotes version, block, grab leg, lock the joint, elbow to the junk, elbow to the throat, either use leverage to throw them to the floor or a leg sweep+leverage to slam the opponent to the floor, and then either stomp, kick, or lay a falling punch on them.
Since you've officially elevated this thread to "my tiger style can defeat your crane style", how about those "impractical sport competition moves" and "ceremonial bullshit" from BJJ that you needed some time to think about?
Since you've officially elevated this thread to "my tiger style can defeat your crane style", how about those "impractical sport competition moves" and "ceremonial bullshit" from BJJ that you needed some time to think about?
I completely forgot about them, why do you ask? Hold on, let me review for a moment.
What are the "ceremonial bullshit and Impractical Sport competition moves" in BJJ that you're talking about? Certainly there are techniques (certain guards, for instance) that you'd only want to use in a sport BJJ context -- that's why no one uses those techniques in MMA.
Looks like you answered your own question there, Grasshoppah, when in the same breath as asking me what the ceremonial bullshit and impractical sport/competition moves are, you pointing out that there are techniques in BJJ that you'd only ever want to use in sport, and from that one might be able to deduce that they're impractical. The 3/4 figure is a pretty obvious hyperbole for most arts(what do I look like, a martial arts historian? You were expecting a mathematically accurate percentage? If you're not paying me, not the best assumption you could have made), but you can't deny there is quite a bit of ceremony, just like many other arts, including Silat - Shit, some forms of silat practice both sparring, and a solo competition performance that is essentially a dance. That is fucking stupid, but it's there, I won't argue that. One of the two Systema schools teaches no-touch knockouts at the higher levels - Even Vlad Visiliev is a believer in them, and he's pretty much one of the head honchos of the whole deal.
Question - would you be fighting so hard if it wasn't your sacred cow on the grill, or did this thread start because you didn't like someone pointing out that BJJ has as much bullshit as any and just about every other art?
Regardless, BJJ has been proven effective over and over again, for over 70 years, in fights with the barest of rules.
You're in street clothes, normal shoes, you have a knife. I'm standing 15 feet away with a shot pump action shotgun, round chambered, aimed at you, finger on the trigger. Considering this is a street fight with the barest of rules, what move, considering your BJJ experience, would be the most effective defense?
Don't feed me that "Proven effective in streetfights with the barest of rules" line of horseshit. You know what else has been proven effective in a street fight with the barest of rules? Breaking the other guy's legs with a fucking baseball bat, but I don't see anybody making a nice chunk of change writing books, selling videos, or starting schools for that.
That, of course, isn't even mentioning the utter pretentious wank that is contained in the statement "Proven effective in a street fight with the barest of rules" - It's a fucking street fight. There are no rules beyond "Don't die" and that's really more of a general guideline than anything else. What, you expect the guy to sit around picking his teeth with his switchblade while you discuss terms, or maybe even hang about while you kick off your shoes and change into your Gi? This isn't a sparring match, a competition, practice or a tournament. There isn't a Ref here to blow his whistle when the big guy sits on you for too long, or to count points. The aim of this is to leave with the same compliment of faculties, injuries and orifices that you went into it with, and nothing else. Everything else is either a bonus or a loss.
Since you've officially elevated this thread to "my tiger style can defeat your crane style"
To the best of my memory, it sure as hell appears you started this thread because you didn't like a nice cut of your sacred cow being grilled up along with everyone else's. You think your art is beyond reproach, then please, solve my conundrum, and tell me exactly how you would defend against the above Shotgun-at-15-feet problem. Maybe BJJ teaches you a secret technique to slip between the shotgun pellets? Hey, I don't know. Anything is possible, I know nothing about the art, and since that despite your admission that there is impractical sport/comp bullshit moves and despite that it is plain to see to anyone who has observed a few classes or gone to a competition there is as much ceremony as any other art(again, but for a small few - silat NOT among them) yet still need me to explain these things to you, there is obviously some strange ancient magic at work here that I'm not quite getting.
Well, that, or you're getting prissy because it's your art, and not someone else's, that got mentioned. If I might make a humble suggestion, why don't you give up the Back Mount you seem to be maintaining on your high horse, and get down in the muck with the rest of us Proles? You'll get some ceremonial shit on your nice, pretty Gi, But don't worry, it washes right out in a real fight.
Clearly the only way to resolve this argument is a fight to the death.
Shit, some forms of silat practice both sparring, and a solo competition performance that is essentially a dance. That is fucking stupid, but it's there, I won't argue that.
I don't see anything wrong with using martial arts as a performance art, as long as everyone involved separates the concepts of self defense and performance.
@Churba -- holy shit, guy, did I touch a nerve? You made a statement a while back that I asked you to back up. You said you needed some time to think about it. I've been waiting for your reply, and this seemed as good a time as any to give you a reminder.
Let's go through this point-by-point:
Looks like you answered your own question there, Grasshoppah, when in the same breath as asking me what the ceremonial bullshit and impractical sport/competition moves are, you pointing out that there are techniques in BJJ that you'd only ever want to use in sport, and from that one might be able to deduce that they're impractical. The 3/4 figure is a pretty obvious hyperbole for most arts(what do I look like, a martial arts historian? You were expecting a mathematically accurate percentage?
I did admit that there are techniques taught in some BJJ schools that are only applicable to sport BJJ competition. These are taught as sport-only techniques, and like I also mentioned, the Gracie family themselves are opposed to the incorporation of sport-only techniques, so an argument could be made that these are technically not BJJ. Regardless, I'm talking about a tiny sliver of the whole art -- not 3/4, not 1/2, not even 1/20 of the techniques in the art. I was never even taught any of these techniques by my professor.
Question - would you be fighting so hard if it wasn't your sacred cow on the grill, or did this thread start because you didn't like someone pointing out that BJJ has as much bullshit as any and just about every other art?
I'm not sure why you think I'm "fighting so hard". I'm just reminding you that I'm waiting for you to back up your claim. I didn't start this thread to defend BJJ -- I started it to avoid completely taking over the Boo-Yah thread with martial arts discussion.
You're in street clothes, normal shoes, you have a knife. I'm standing 15 feet away with a shot pump action shotgun, round chambered, aimed at you, finger on the trigger. Considering this is a street fight with the barest of rules, what move, considering your BJJ experience, would be the most effective defense?
Don't know, don't particularly care. You'll notice that I never said "street fight" anywhere. I was referring to vale tudo fights in Brazil -- bare-knuckle fights that went on as long as they had to, where the only rules were no eye gouging or fish-hooking. That's about the barest rule-set of any sport fight I've ever heard of, and BJJ dominated vale tudo for the better part of a century. I never made any claim that it was the ultimate self-defense art -- only that its techniques have been consistently proven effective.
You think your art is beyond reproach, then please, solve my conundrum, and tell me exactly how you would defend against the above Shotgun-at-15-feet problem.
BJJ doesn't have a solution to that problem, nor does it claim to. I suspect that there isn't an art in existence that has a truly effective solution to that problem, though I'm sure plenty claim to. You seem to have somehow gotten the idea that I claimed that BJJ is the single best martial art on earth, applicable in every situation. To the contrary:
I'm not claiming that any of these arts are sufficient in and of themselves for any kind of conflict you might find yourself in, or that all of their techniques are useful in most situations
All I did was ask you to back up the claim you made.
I know nothing about the art,
I suspected as much, since you didn't seem to have an answer to my question.
it is plain to see to anyone who has observed a few classes or gone to a competition there is as much ceremony as any other art
You still haven't given any examples of this, and I still disagree. Please -- just cite a few specific examples of "ceremony" in BJJ. That's all I was ever asking for.
Well, that, or you're getting prissy because it's your art, and not someone else's, that got mentioned.
No offense intended, but it really seems like you're the one that's getting prissy.
why don't you give up the Back Mount you seem to be maintaining on your high horse, and get down in the muck with the rest of us Proles? You'll get some ceremonial shit on your nice, pretty Gi, But don't worry, it washes right out in a real fight.
I honestly don't even know what you mean by this. Can you explain it?
EDIT: Upon rereading this -- I really can't believe how condescending your post was. If I said something that offended you, I'm sorry -- I never intended to start a fight here. Is there something going on here that I've missed? Because I can't make any sense of your response.
Clearly the only way to resolve this argument is a fight to the death.
In all seriousness, when Churba makes his way to LA, I'd be thrilled to have a friendly sparring match.
@Churba -- holy shit, guy, did I touch a nerve? You made a statement a while back that I asked you to back up. You said you needed some time to think about it. I've been waiting for your reply, and this seemed as good a time as any to give you a reminder.
Nah man, not really - I'd just had an arsehole of a day, and I sparked off on you when I shouldn'a. Sorry about that, I gotta lean to keep my big mouth in check.
Regardless, I'm talking about a tiny sliver of the whole art -- not 3/4, not 1/2, not even 1/20 of the techniques in the art. I was never even taught any of these techniques by my professor.
As I said, it was a number plucked out of the air, though on calmer reflection, propably a somewhat unfair one. And my guru never taught me to dance, either.
Upon rereading this -- I really can't believe how condescending your post was. If I said something that offended you, I'm sorry -- I never intended to start a fight here. Is there something going on here that I've missed? Because I can't make any sense of your response.
Jesus christ, I can't believe it either. You didn't offend me - I was just being an utter cunt. You shouldn't be apologizing, I should be, for being such an arsehole for no reason. I'm sorry, man, I sparked off with about as much rhyme or reason as the jabberwocky, in the process showing off my own lack of knowledge and laying out more abuse than good argument.
In all seriousness, when Churba makes his way to LA, I'd be thrilled to have a friendly sparring match.
Two conditions - 1)Gimmie time to recover from my Jetlag and discombobulation 2)Loser buys the beers.
Comments
Edit - and of course, if they are desperate try to use you as a base for a kick with their support leg, you simply slam them to the floor using the leverage from their other leg, and smack them about from there.
Question - would you be fighting so hard if it wasn't your sacred cow on the grill, or did this thread start because you didn't like someone pointing out that BJJ has as much bullshit as any and just about every other art? You're in street clothes, normal shoes, you have a knife. I'm standing 15 feet away with a shot pump action shotgun, round chambered, aimed at you, finger on the trigger. Considering this is a street fight with the barest of rules, what move, considering your BJJ experience, would be the most effective defense?
Don't feed me that "Proven effective in streetfights with the barest of rules" line of horseshit. You know what else has been proven effective in a street fight with the barest of rules? Breaking the other guy's legs with a fucking baseball bat, but I don't see anybody making a nice chunk of change writing books, selling videos, or starting schools for that.
That, of course, isn't even mentioning the utter pretentious wank that is contained in the statement "Proven effective in a street fight with the barest of rules" - It's a fucking street fight. There are no rules beyond "Don't die" and that's really more of a general guideline than anything else. What, you expect the guy to sit around picking his teeth with his switchblade while you discuss terms, or maybe even hang about while you kick off your shoes and change into your Gi?
This isn't a sparring match, a competition, practice or a tournament. There isn't a Ref here to blow his whistle when the big guy sits on you for too long, or to count points. The aim of this is to leave with the same compliment of faculties, injuries and orifices that you went into it with, and nothing else. Everything else is either a bonus or a loss. To the best of my memory, it sure as hell appears you started this thread because you didn't like a nice cut of your sacred cow being grilled up along with everyone else's. You think your art is beyond reproach, then please, solve my conundrum, and tell me exactly how you would defend against the above Shotgun-at-15-feet problem. Maybe BJJ teaches you a secret technique to slip between the shotgun pellets? Hey, I don't know. Anything is possible, I know nothing about the art, and since that despite your admission that there is impractical sport/comp bullshit moves and despite that it is plain to see to anyone who has observed a few classes or gone to a competition there is as much ceremony as any other art(again, but for a small few - silat NOT among them) yet still need me to explain these things to you, there is obviously some strange ancient magic at work here that I'm not quite getting.
Well, that, or you're getting prissy because it's your art, and not someone else's, that got mentioned. If I might make a humble suggestion, why don't you give up the Back Mount you seem to be maintaining on your high horse, and get down in the muck with the rest of us Proles? You'll get some ceremonial shit on your nice, pretty Gi, But don't worry, it washes right out in a real fight.
Let's go through this point-by-point: I did admit that there are techniques taught in some BJJ schools that are only applicable to sport BJJ competition. These are taught as sport-only techniques, and like I also mentioned, the Gracie family themselves are opposed to the incorporation of sport-only techniques, so an argument could be made that these are technically not BJJ. Regardless, I'm talking about a tiny sliver of the whole art -- not 3/4, not 1/2, not even 1/20 of the techniques in the art. I was never even taught any of these techniques by my professor. I'm not sure why you think I'm "fighting so hard". I'm just reminding you that I'm waiting for you to back up your claim. I didn't start this thread to defend BJJ -- I started it to avoid completely taking over the Boo-Yah thread with martial arts discussion. Don't know, don't particularly care. You'll notice that I never said "street fight" anywhere. I was referring to vale tudo fights in Brazil -- bare-knuckle fights that went on as long as they had to, where the only rules were no eye gouging or fish-hooking. That's about the barest rule-set of any sport fight I've ever heard of, and BJJ dominated vale tudo for the better part of a century. I never made any claim that it was the ultimate self-defense art -- only that its techniques have been consistently proven effective. BJJ doesn't have a solution to that problem, nor does it claim to. I suspect that there isn't an art in existence that has a truly effective solution to that problem, though I'm sure plenty claim to. You seem to have somehow gotten the idea that I claimed that BJJ is the single best martial art on earth, applicable in every situation. To the contrary: All I did was ask you to back up the claim you made. I suspected as much, since you didn't seem to have an answer to my question. You still haven't given any examples of this, and I still disagree. Please -- just cite a few specific examples of "ceremony" in BJJ. That's all I was ever asking for. No offense intended, but it really seems like you're the one that's getting prissy. I honestly don't even know what you mean by this. Can you explain it?
EDIT: Upon rereading this -- I really can't believe how condescending your post was. If I said something that offended you, I'm sorry -- I never intended to start a fight here. Is there something going on here that I've missed? Because I can't make any sense of your response. In all seriousness, when Churba makes his way to LA, I'd be thrilled to have a friendly sparring match.
Cos-play sparring!
This could lead to some Epic Lulz.
It would never happen, but it sure is a funny thought.
>.