That's Driving 101. Engine != transmission. In the case of engine braking the transmission is still only transferring power to the wheels. You can also only get so far with engine braking and will not stop unless you go up an incline.
I'm sorry you don't know as much about engines and transmissions as you think you do, but don't get all excited and flip out on everyone.
Also there's water in the lines so if it's cold outside it'll freeze on and not release.
FROTH! Don't you people learn ANYTHING?!
Yes, I learned to not use my handbrake because it kept freezing in the on position. What's the problem?
Like most things in life, people only learn things when they need to, and they have to be learned through experience. No amount of studying will suddenly enable you to be able to drive a car. You have to actually do it. The same applies to people who switch from auto to manual. The same applies to people who at some point need to use either a foot parking brake or a hand parking/emergency brake. You just need to actually use them to figure them out, and most people don't try to gain the variety needed to be good drivers.
Oi! SHUT UP! THE LOT OF YOU! Enough of your bickering. At this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. This thread is supposed to be about the joy of driving, not your individual parking techniques.
Enough of your bickering. At this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. This thread is supposed to be about the joy of driving, not your individual parking techniques.
NO! YOU'RE WRONG!
Hmm. My "fault in the automatic gearbox" light came on again today. I'm going to check the transmission fluid. NOT VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS.
I didn't equate the engine to the transmission. Why do you think I used the term "on the other hand"?
The way you phrased it made it sound exactly like you were 'equating' engine and transmission. Also, you will NOT stop by just stalling unless you go up an incline. You will slow down to the natural RPMs of the engine which will result in the car slowing down, but not stopping, to the point where the power produced at these low RPMs will equate the resistances that work upon the car resulting in a low velocity, but a non-zero velocity. Ergo, you do not stop. Unless of course you have an old car that can barely move itself.
I'm sorry you don't know as much about engines and transmissions as you think you do, but don't get all excited and flip out on everyone.
>implying I think I know anything. When stalling on the engine the transmission still just transmits power.
What's the problem?
People learn to not engage the handbrake in freezing weather during their driving lessons over here. It's a follow-up to the "YOU GUYS LEARN NOTHING!" comment, i.e. my disappointment with how little people seem to be taught in the states regarding driving and owning a car.
No amount of studying will suddenly enable you to be able to drive a car.
The comment you are replying to is about the stupidity of engaging a hand brake for a long period of time in freezing conditions. Not about driving. Studying will in fact enable you to know that you shouldn't engage said hand brake during freezing conditions.
Oi! SHUT UP! THE LOT OF YOU! Enough of your bickering.
Buzzkill.
At this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Nothing wrong with that. It can even result in readers learning something useful.
This thread is supposed to be about the joy of driving
If one has to go by your original post it's not actually about 'driving' but instead about 'racing', or more appropriately called dangerous-rough-housing-with-tons-of-metal-because-you-have-a-license-to-kill-people-for-your-own-enjoyment.
People learn to not engage the handbrake in freezing weather during their driving lessons over here. It's a follow-up to the "YOU GUYS LEARN NOTHING!" comment, i.e. my disappointment with how little people seem to be taught in the states regarding driving and owning a car.
Yes, it's quite woeful. It's amazing that I can drive a car at all without spearing into the nearest piece of undergrowth.
If one has to go by your original post it's not actually about 'driving' but instead about 'racing', or more appropriately called dangerous-rough-housing-with-tons-of-metal-because-you-have-a-license-to-kill-people-for-your-own-enjoyment.
I have a license to kill. I could show you, but then I'd have to kill you.
I didn't equate the engine to the transmission. Why do you think I used the term "on the other hand"?
The way you phrased it made it sound exactly like you were 'equating' engine and transmission.
Well, I'm sorry about that.
Also, you will NOT stop by just stalling unless you go up an incline. You will slow down to the natural RPMs of the engine which will result in the car slowing down, but not stopping, to the point where the power produced at these low RPMs will equate the resistances that work upon the car resulting in a low velocity, but a non-zero velocity. Ergo, you do not stop. Unless of course you have an old car that can barely move itself.
Once you're slow enough, you can shift into reverse. Hence it's wholly possible to use only the engine to stop the car.
If you lock the wheels first, it ought to work. Good chance of breaking the car, of course, but we're arguing possibilities here. Also, most modern cars will probably have failsafes against this kind of crazy stuff.
In any case, you will eventually stop if you shift into neutral, which is the original reason why I corrected Nine's post.
Yes, it's quite woeful. It's amazing that I can drive a car at all without spearing into the nearest piece of undergrowth.
That would be awesome. Sadly, driving a car is trivial. Driving a car in traffic is the harder part.
I have a license to kill. I could show you, but then I'd have to kill you.
Resurrect me afterwards. Also, could you at least first show me around town? I want to kick a can on the streets of NYC before I die and what better moment to do so than when I'm there to get killed.
Once you're slow enough, you can shift into reverse.
I-... Dammit, gedavids beat me to it. Pass me the popcorn will ya?
In any case, you will eventually stop if you shift into neutral
This is true, however once you shift into neutral you are just stalling, no longer using the engine and gearbox to stop but just the laws of motion.
I'm going carless for now. Renting six or eight times throughout the year is cheaper than insurance + parking space + maintenance, nevermind actually buying another car.
Hey, I'm here to amuse. I still hold that, failsafes aside, the car will stop, most likely in spectacular fashion ^_~
Sure! In much the same fashion as it will stop when you put it sideways to your moving direction on the high way.
Back to seriousness, while slowing to idle won't stop the car, you've already done almost all of the work of stopping. The rest of the work can be done by crashing, or possibly the emergency brake.
I'm going carless for now. Renting six or eight times throughout the year is cheaper than insurance + parking space + maintenance, nevermind actually buying another car.
As Churba said, the Park on an automatic basically locks the box to prevent it from going either way.
Well, it's more the problem that it achives this using a relatively small pin, which is liable to fatigue and shear, and/or root your transmission linkage like a drunken prom date.
Just so you guys know, I've never known anyone that's had a transmission problem from leaving their car in park, and no-one I know uses the PARKING brake other than me. There aren't many hills here, so maybe that's part of it.
Fair enough. Good work on using the Parking Brake though, it's a good habit to be in.
When I took out a can of kidney beans and a can opener, she almost exploded.
I would have told you to put that shit down too. It's a driving lesson, you wanna eat while you drive, do it in your own car.
For example, when it snowed here in North Carolina, my driving lesson was not "How to drive safely in adverse weather", but "How to do doughnuts in a right hand drive Jeep".
This is more beneficial than you think. There is no better way to figure out how to drive your car safely than by driving it unsafely in a safe place. I mean, Shit, if you've never slid your car sideways on the snow, for example, how do you know how that feels, how it behaves, how it all goes along? I speak this from experience, because I thought I was the hot shit behind the wheel, and could handle anything. Then, I encountered Snow and black ice for the first time. It was a very rapid education in how I might be bloody good, but I still got plenty to learn.
You can also only get so far with engine braking and will not stop unless you go up an incline.
Pah. You'll see why I disagree in an anecdote later on.
Do you live in the Netherlands? No. Fuck you, use your parking brake.
Do you live in The Netherlands? Yes? Fuck you, use your parking brake anyway. It's a good habit.
Yes, I learned to not use my handbrake because it kept freezing in the on position. What's the problem?
Holy shit, dude. Isn't there something you can do about that? WD-40 on the linkages or something?
Like most things in life, people only learn things when they need to, and they have to be learned through experience. No amount of studying will suddenly enable you to be able to drive a car. You have to actually do it. The same applies to people who switch from auto to manual. The same applies to people who at some point need to use either a foot parking brake or a hand parking/emergency brake. You just need to actually use them to figure them out, and most people don't try to gain the variety needed to be good drivers.
Testify, brother!
People learn to not engage the handbrake in freezing weather during their driving lessons over here.
Jesus christ. I'm not built for this cold bullshit.
Nothing wrong with that. It can even result in readers learning something useful.
Yes, if they stopped reading about a page ago.
Hmm. My "fault in the automatic gearbox" light came on again today. I'm going to check the transmission fluid. NOT VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS.
You know, It's weird how many people don't know how to check their own oil, steering and transmission fluid. As I've said to Rym in another thread, to many people, Cars are essentially Fuel > Magic involving words like spark plugs, crankshaft, and differential > MOVEMENT! But still, that sucks. I hope it isn't to serious.
Now, for the Anecdote - There is more too it, but I'll keep it to the Car-related bits. So, My mate Daniel and I are driving to a party we were working in his old Feroza, and we were not more than 150 metres from my house when we hear a PINGCLUNK, the car shudders, and tries to steer nearly all the way to the right. We try to stop - No brakes. The pedal just thunked to the floor. Not even handbrake. So, we Engine-brake down to the lights, and decide what to do - we can go on to the party, which is an hour and a half's drive away, or attempt with two guys - one of which who is short, and has the muscle tone of a Cue-stick - to push a two ton mini 4X4 up a steep hill, control it with no brakes on the way back down, steer it into a sharp turn, and down a residential street, to not have another car available. Testing out the steering, we still had the ability to turn and drive straight, so we decide to take the low-traffic, medium speed route to the Party. Halfway to the party, smoke starts pouring out from under the hood at the lights, and so we step out, and pop the hood to take a look, and the engine is ON FIRE. So, thinking quickly, I grab an old shirt from the Dan's car, pour half a bottle of cola on it, and while daniel pours water from another bottle on it, beat out the fire. We call our mate nick, a mechanic, and tell him about it, and he says that it should be safe to continue, relatively, and just put out the fire if it starts again, so we pull in near a petrol station - understandably nervy about taking a recently on fire car into a petrol station - and grab a few big bottles of water, and continue on to the party. We manage to get there with no more problems, and only two more fires, than we'd had on the way there.
So, on the way back from the party, which was another story to itself, we've managed to struggle our way back to the only part of the route we were unsure about - the Riverside Expressway. We're cruising along at about 90 Klicks an hour, us in the far right lane, and a maxi taxi - the only other car on the road - in the far left of a four lane expressway. Suddenly, in the middle of a particularly good song, we swerve really hard, as if Daniel had suddenly gone full lock to the right in a very short time, Daniel's hard lean on the horn and the maxi taxi driver's quick burst of speed meaning we missed him by about 4 feet, and we straighten out again, with daniel fighting the wheel, struggling it all over the place, and the brake just slammed flat to the floor, handbrake up(as we'd established, it was only, barely, just a tiny bit working at the start, it was worth the chance - it didn't work at all.) I had enough time to say to Daniel, "We've lost control, haven't we?" to which he barely responded "Fuckin' Oath." Before the front left wheel decided that this tortured relationship with the rest of the Fearsome Feroza had gone entirely too far already, and that it was having no more dealings with it, and packing up it's brake caliper and wheel bearing, decided to part company with us, and fuck off at top speed. We're sliding in a nearly straight line, We can see pedestrians on the footbridge over the expressway staring at us and pointing, a rooster tail of blazing orange sparks flying past and somewhat into my window, the rest of the car from the front wheels back with a skirt of orange sparks from where the bash-plate was making it's loving acquaintance with the pavement, I'm was winding up my window as best I could so that I can stop getting burned by hot metal sparks, until finally, after a 130 M slide and a long gouge out of the roadway from where the back-plate of the brake Caliper had dug into the road, we came to a stop.
"Daniel mate?" "Yeah?" "I think your car is broken." "I'd say that's pretty likely" Then we just looked at each other, and burst into laughter. We got out of the car, surveyed the damage, and just started laughing. We called the tow truck, cranked up the stereo, I popped some flares down the road leading to the car so nobody ran up the back of us, and then, off from the side of the road, we started dancing, heckling the people on the bridge, and so on...until the cops came.
Holy shit, dude. Isn't there something you can do about that? WD-40 on the linkages or something?
The issue is that the rubber grommets that keep water from getting on the handbrake cable have basically disintegrated. The only real fix is to change the lines. I have new lines, and will be replacing them in the spring when the cold goes away. Also I really need to fix my camaro first so I can put my saab up on blocks for a little while. There's a lot that needs doing really.
"Daniel mate?" "Yeah?" "I think your car is broken." "I'd say that's pretty likely"
You will slow down to the natural RPMs of the engine which will result in the car slowing down, but not stopping, to the point where the power produced at these low RPMs will equate the resistances that work upon the car resulting in a low velocity, but a non-zero velocity. Ergo, you do not stop. Unless of course you have an old car that can barely move itself.
So, My mate Daniel and I are driving to a party we were working in his old Feroza, and we were not more than 150 metres from my house when we hear a PINGCLUNK, the car shudders, and tries to steer nearly all the way to the right. We try to stop - No brakes. The pedal just thunked to the floor. Not even handbrake. So, we Engine-brake down to the lights
I guess Nine would put you under "old car that can barely move itself". Anyway, coming back to Nine's statement: Physics 101. Power != Force. Oh, and before you try to worm your way out, resistance implies friction or drag, which is definitely a force. Power cannot equate force. Since there are minimum values for both the torque due to the engine and the net resistance torque, whether or not the car will stop from only engine braking depends on which value is greater. Consequently, the question of whether engine braking will entirely stop a car remains unsettled and might well depend on the car in question. I suspect that most cars will indeed come to a stop, though not quickly, as I said before.
without actually hitting anything is quite a feat indeed.
Who said anything about not hitting things? Or not flipping over for that matter.
The rest of the work can be done by crashing, or possibly the emergency brake.
Yes, by then you will have slowed down enough that the parking brake's measly braking power will get you to a halt. That's also the procedure you should follow when your brakes are shot, though you'd have to 'crash' if your hand brake was also FUBAR'd.
Fuck you, use your parking brake anyway.
I do. The Netherlands is just the only country that's actually flat enough where leaving the parking brake off is possible. It's standard procedure for parking, like removing the keys from the ignition.
I don't know about your car, but if you turn off the engine on mine, you loose power on the brakes and steering, if you have a stick, just use compression to decelerate and the hand brake at a safe speed. Unless there is an electrical fire, turning off your car is the worst you can do.
Comments
Honestly people...
Hmm. My "fault in the automatic gearbox" light came on again today. I'm going to check the transmission fluid. NOT VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS.
I'm sorry, I'm sure that's actually possiBWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
In any case, you will eventually stop if you shift into neutral, which is the original reason why I corrected Nine's post.
Just wait'll the next time some ricer tries to pass me: I'll pop it in "R" and smoke them!
I'm going carless for now. Renting six or eight times throughout the year is cheaper than insurance + parking space + maintenance, nevermind actually buying another car.
But still, that sucks. I hope it isn't to serious.
Now, for the Anecdote - There is more too it, but I'll keep it to the Car-related bits.
So, My mate Daniel and I are driving to a party we were working in his old Feroza, and we were not more than 150 metres from my house when we hear a PINGCLUNK, the car shudders, and tries to steer nearly all the way to the right. We try to stop - No brakes. The pedal just thunked to the floor. Not even handbrake. So, we Engine-brake down to the lights, and decide what to do - we can go on to the party, which is an hour and a half's drive away, or attempt with two guys - one of which who is short, and has the muscle tone of a Cue-stick - to push a two ton mini 4X4 up a steep hill, control it with no brakes on the way back down, steer it into a sharp turn, and down a residential street, to not have another car available.
Testing out the steering, we still had the ability to turn and drive straight, so we decide to take the low-traffic, medium speed route to the Party.
Halfway to the party, smoke starts pouring out from under the hood at the lights, and so we step out, and pop the hood to take a look, and the engine is ON FIRE.
So, thinking quickly, I grab an old shirt from the Dan's car, pour half a bottle of cola on it, and while daniel pours water from another bottle on it, beat out the fire.
We call our mate nick, a mechanic, and tell him about it, and he says that it should be safe to continue, relatively, and just put out the fire if it starts again, so we pull in near a petrol station - understandably nervy about taking a recently on fire car into a petrol station - and grab a few big bottles of water, and continue on to the party. We manage to get there with no more problems, and only two more fires, than we'd had on the way there.
So, on the way back from the party, which was another story to itself, we've managed to struggle our way back to the only part of the route we were unsure about - the Riverside Expressway. We're cruising along at about 90 Klicks an hour, us in the far right lane, and a maxi taxi - the only other car on the road - in the far left of a four lane expressway. Suddenly, in the middle of a particularly good song, we swerve really hard, as if Daniel had suddenly gone full lock to the right in a very short time, Daniel's hard lean on the horn and the maxi taxi driver's quick burst of speed meaning we missed him by about 4 feet, and we straighten out again, with daniel fighting the wheel, struggling it all over the place, and the brake just slammed flat to the floor, handbrake up(as we'd established, it was only, barely, just a tiny bit working at the start, it was worth the chance - it didn't work at all.)
I had enough time to say to Daniel, "We've lost control, haven't we?" to which he barely responded "Fuckin' Oath." Before the front left wheel decided that this tortured relationship with the rest of the Fearsome Feroza had gone entirely too far already, and that it was having no more dealings with it, and packing up it's brake caliper and wheel bearing, decided to part company with us, and fuck off at top speed.
We're sliding in a nearly straight line, We can see pedestrians on the footbridge over the expressway staring at us and pointing, a rooster tail of blazing orange sparks flying past and somewhat into my window, the rest of the car from the front wheels back with a skirt of orange sparks from where the bash-plate was making it's loving acquaintance with the pavement, I'm was winding up my window as best I could so that I can stop getting burned by hot metal sparks, until finally, after a 130 M slide and a long gouge out of the roadway from where the back-plate of the brake Caliper had dug into the road, we came to a stop.
"Daniel mate?"
"Yeah?"
"I think your car is broken."
"I'd say that's pretty likely"
Then we just looked at each other, and burst into laughter. We got out of the car, surveyed the damage, and just started laughing. We called the tow truck, cranked up the stereo, I popped some flares down the road leading to the car so nobody ran up the back of us, and then, off from the side of the road, we started dancing, heckling the people on the bridge, and so on...until the cops came.
Anyway, coming back to Nine's statement:
Physics 101. Power != Force. Oh, and before you try to worm your way out, resistance implies friction or drag, which is definitely a force. Power cannot equate force. Since there are minimum values for both the torque due to the engine and the net resistance torque, whether or not the car will stop from only engine braking depends on which value is greater. Consequently, the question of whether engine braking will entirely stop a car remains unsettled and might well depend on the car in question. I suspect that most cars will indeed come to a stop, though not quickly, as I said before.