Who are you to say these women don't agree with society's assessment of what is sexy? If that's what they want to do to tone their muscles and learn how to move seductively, then they should go for it.
I'm saying that they do agree, and enjoy it. I think that people agree with a lot of lame social conventions. I'm just saying that conforming like this, in my opinion, is not going to empower you or your gender above its current role.
Who are you to say these women don't agree with society's assessment of what is sexy? If that's what they want to do to tone their muscles and learn how to move seductively, then they should go for it.
I'm saying that they do agree, and enjoy it. I think that people agree with a lot of lame social conventions. I'm just saying that conforming like this, in my opinion, is not going to empower you or your gender above it's current role.
Empowerment is all about choice, though. Forcing someone into a role that better fits your concept of power is just as bad as forcing someone into a subservient role. Just because you have the right to wear a tank top and shorts doesn't mean we should outlaw your right to wear a birka if you so choose.
What did I say about forcing anyone to stop doing anything? All I said is that emulating strippers is, in my opinion, counter productive to gender equality. If it makes them happy, they can do it all they want. Freedom! I wish they wouldn't though, because it keeps around ideas in society that hurt me by proxy.
Edit: I guess you could equate the stripping/porn emulation to Ye olde free speech argument. Just because I support free speech doesn't mean that I think that all speech is wonderful. I think the pole dancers are like people saying something like "Lesbians are a bad influence and they will turn others gay." It's just speech, but it affects public discourse to some extent. I can't do anything to stop them from saying it, though, except countering it with my own words.
Yeah, I know, but you sound like you are complaining that they did not make the choice you would have liked them to make. By doing that, you are essentially asserting social pressure to choose the path you want them to. That is the same as the social pressure to emulate strippers. There is a difference between providing the opportunity for choice and pressuring someone to choose a certain option.
they did not make the choice you would have liked them to make. By doing that, you are essentially asserting social pressure to choose the path you want them to.
How does anyone change society but by boosting their own social memes in the eyes of its members? I do not pretend to have any sort of objective moral right or wrong, but I will push for ideas that, in my opinion, bring the world closer to perfect Emi world. In pursuit of perfect Emi world, I will fight the current pressures that say I have to be like a stripper to be sexy and try to win people over to the things I enjoy. All I'm doing is pushing my own memes, just like anyone does.
You should do it by pursuing your own role and being successful, though. Not by telling other women they are wrong for choosing what they wanted. I understand the desire to show someone what you enjoy, but there is a difference between saying, "Look how awesome this is! You might enjoy it too!" and saying "This is better than yours, and you should change to it."
I hate how some women get upset when I mention that I would like to be a stay-at-home mom or housewife. Like it is a less valid choice than anything else just because it is traditional. They are not forcing me to do anything, but they are telling me that it is not as good as being an empowered woman in the workplace. Maybe that is their own feeling, but I am not the same person as them!
I hate how some women get upset when I mention that I would like to be a stay-at-home mom or housewife.
Yea I hate that people don't respect that i want to be a stay at home husband :-p
You joke, but that's also a valid choice if it works for the household.
The main problem I see with that kind of arrangement is when it puts all the pressure for financial support on one party and the other party becomes essentially a dependent. Even if you are a stay-at-home spouse, you still have to be a team and work together with your husband or wife to make sure everything is taken care of. That means keeping yourself marketable and having the ability to make money if something should happen that disables the working spouse or expenses suddenly increase.
It's not the ROLE that is the problem. It's the mentality that can go along with it.
there is a difference between saying, "Look how awesome this is! You might enjoy it too!" and saying "This is better than yours, and you should change to it."
So we should not try to convince people of the relative benefits of, say, liberal thought, or secular humanism? Why do we argue about anything on these boards?
Edit: I think I understand. We should promote our own opinions, but not at the expense of others. It should be "I'm happy with my idea!" not "Your idea is stupid."
there is a difference between saying, "Look how awesome this is! You might enjoy it too!" and saying "This is better than yours, and you should change to it."
So we should not try to convince people of the relative benefits of, say, liberal thought, or secular humanism? Why do we argue about anything on these boards?
The discussions on this board often have valid support for propositions. We discuss ideas and the support behind them in an effort to sort through the noise and figure out our stances. We have all voluntarily participated in these discussions. Also, when one person says "this is better than that" without any support, what happens? They get JUMPED. There is no support for the proposition that the view that strippers are sexy is less valid than the view that shy, cute girls are sexy. If you would like to start a discussion to provide support for this proposition, I welcome the thread and the resulting hilarity.
Edit: Also,
Edit: I think I understand. We should promote our own opinions, but not at the expense of others. It should be "I'm happy with my idea!" not "Your idea is stupid."
Edit: I think I understand. We should promote our own opinions, but not at the expense of others. It should be "I'm happy with my idea!" not "Your idea is stupid."
I've been trying to communicate this to my family for years.
Why do we argue about anything on these boards?
I thought it's always been intellectual masturbation...
Edit: I think I understand. We should promote our own opinions, but not at the expense of others. It should be "I'm happy with my idea!" not "Your idea is stupid."
Then you support that proposition with evidence, bitch!
"Homeopathy is stupid" is perfectly valid because we have evidence that supports it. It's only when somethign is truly subjective that this comes into play.
There is no support for the proposition that the view that strippers are sexy is less valid than the view that shy, cute girls are sexy.
That wasn't my point. It was that strippers/porn is viewed by many as the only way to be sexy. I didn't say there was one way to be sexy. I just said it's bad that these women have to conform to this particular thing in order to feel sexy. There are many different kinds of sexy and not everyone recognizes that.
There is no support for the proposition that the view that strippers are sexy is less valid than the view that shy, cute girls are sexy.
That wasn't my point. It was that strippers/porn is viewed by many as the only way to be sexy. I didn't say there was one way to be sexy. I just said it's bad that these women have to conform in order to feel sexy. There are many different kinds of sexy.
Or maybe they aren't conforming. Maybe they find it sexy too, and therefore want to learn how to be what they find sexy.
Example: Perception: Everybody cool likes MLP Action: I watch MLP and like it.
Does this mean I watched MLP and liked it because I thought that's what would make me cool? Not necessarily. That might be why I watched it and say it's cool, but I also might genuinely enjoy the cartoon. You don't know!
Also, there are many different kinds of porn. They do not all conform to the strippers-are-hot theory. Not by a long shot. Believe me when I say there is porn for men who think that Emily is the epitome of sexy.
Also, there are many different kinds of porn. They do not all conform to the strippers-are-hot theory. Not by a long shot. Believe me when I say there is porn for me who think that Emily is the epitome of sexy.
I had a witty thing to say but somehow I lost track.
Also, there are many different kinds of porn. They do not all conform to the strippers-are-hot theory. Not by a long shot. Believe me when I say there is porn for me who think that Emily is the epitome of sexy.
I had a witty thing to say but somehow I lost track.
It's only when somethign is truly subjective that this comes into play.
Ah, but, generally speaking, "subjective disagreements" are not actual disagreements; I dislike the use of the word "subjective" anyway, it's generally misleading. If I say "X is sexy" and you say "no it isn't!" we're not actually disagreeing, though we appear to be on the surface, and indeed we probably think we are disagreeing.
Example: Perception: Everybody cool likes MLP Action: I watch MLP and like it.
That show is stupid, and I dislike it.
Also, there are many different kinds of porn. They do not all conform to the strippers-are-hot theory. Not by a long shot. Believe me when I say there is porn for me who think that Emily is the epitome of sexy.
Example: Perception: Everybody cool likes MLP Action: I watch MLP and like it.
That show is stupid, and I dislike it.
You fail to counter the perception. :P
Also, there are many different kinds of porn. They do not all conform to the strippers-are-hot theory. Not by a long shot. Believe me when I say there is porn for me who think that Emily is the epitome of sexy.
Freudian Slip porno is sexy
You caught me. I like smart, cute, assertive girls who like animals and aren't afraid to be silly.
Comments
All I said is that emulating strippers is, in my opinion, counter productive to gender equality.
If it makes them happy, they can do it all they want. Freedom!
I wish they wouldn't though, because it keeps around ideas in society that hurt me by proxy.
Edit: I guess you could equate the stripping/porn emulation to Ye olde free speech argument. Just because I support free speech doesn't mean that I think that all speech is wonderful. I think the pole dancers are like people saying something like "Lesbians are a bad influence and they will turn others gay." It's just speech, but it affects public discourse to some extent. I can't do anything to stop them from saying it, though, except countering it with my own words.
I hate how some women get upset when I mention that I would like to be a stay-at-home mom or housewife. Like it is a less valid choice than anything else just because it is traditional. They are not forcing me to do anything, but they are telling me that it is not as good as being an empowered woman in the workplace. Maybe that is their own feeling, but I am not the same person as them!
The main problem I see with that kind of arrangement is when it puts all the pressure for financial support on one party and the other party becomes essentially a dependent. Even if you are a stay-at-home spouse, you still have to be a team and work together with your husband or wife to make sure everything is taken care of. That means keeping yourself marketable and having the ability to make money if something should happen that disables the working spouse or expenses suddenly increase.
It's not the ROLE that is the problem. It's the mentality that can go along with it.
Edit: I think I understand. We should promote our own opinions, but not at the expense of others.
It should be "I'm happy with my idea!" not "Your idea is stupid."
Edit: Also, Yes.
It is, of course, important that the role you choose be financially viable.
"Homeopathy is stupid" is perfectly valid because we have evidence that supports it. It's only when somethign is truly subjective that this comes into play.
Example:
Perception: Everybody cool likes MLP
Action: I watch MLP and like it.
Does this mean I watched MLP and liked it because I thought that's what would make me cool? Not necessarily. That might be why I watched it and say it's cool, but I also might genuinely enjoy the cartoon. You don't know!
Also, there are many different kinds of porn. They do not all conform to the strippers-are-hot theory. Not by a long shot. Believe me when I say there is porn for men who think that Emily is the epitome of sexy.
If I say "X is sexy" and you say "no it isn't!" we're not actually disagreeing, though we appear to be on the surface, and indeed we probably think we are disagreeing.