Rym I would disagree that Warhammer and 40K are not pay to win games (referencing your game mechanics panel which I have finally watched). Especially now as new codices are coming out for the armies each one usually has one über unit that will wipe the table, at least until the next army gets its new unit that can mitigate that. Said units are also understandably usually the most expensive model for that army. Without their own über unit armies often have to devote truly ridiculous amounts of firepower to stopping another über.
40K might not be pay to win in the sense that paying money guarantees your win, but someone with infinite money can buy infinite amount of all of the units and thus can always make the best possible armies for the match. On the other hand, someone who is poor and only gets their units from local flea market has a lot less options for their army and is thus in weaker position from the start.
Rym I would disagree that Warhammer and 40K are not pay to win games (referencing your game mechanics panel which I have finally watched). Especially now as new codices are coming out for the armies each one usually has one über unit that will wipe the table, at least until the next army gets its new unit that can mitigate that. Said units are also understandably usually the most expensive model for that army. Without their own über unit armies often have to devote truly ridiculous amounts of firepower to stopping another über.
It's still not "pay to win" because both players are limited to a certain points value that they can field. The "uber" units are still assigned a points value, and the most powerful units also cost the most points. There is a pretty solid amount of balance, though all asymmetrical games will involves a degree of unbalance.
And, in general, the uber high-points units are rarely worth their actual points value.
Plus, you're ignoring the "pay to lose" aspect of the game. For a long time, the Imperial Guard could only be found as metal models, making them significantly more expensive than an equivalently-powerful (or even more powerful) army.
"Pay to win" is where you can pay real money for a mechanical advantage that is simply unavailable to non-paying players.
40k isn't "pay to win" so much as it's "pay to play." Same as Netrunner.
They are both pay to play, but slightly different. Netrunner has a cap on how much you can possibly pay to have enough cards to make any conceivable deck. Imagine how much money you would have to spend in order to have enough units to build any conceivable 40K army of any point value. Not only do you have to buy a zillion Space Marines, you need to buy the same ones multiple times and customize them differently with different weapons loadouts. It's not collectible in that nothing is rare, but you can always spend more money. If you have all the Netrunner cards there is literally nothing to spend more money on.
As Netrunner gets more and more expansions wouldn't it at some point reach that point where it's unfeasible for new player to get every card. Wouldn't it at that point be like Warhammer, you ether plan what kind of deck/army you want to get and then buy the materials, or you buy cards/units randomly and then try to get best out of what you have.
40k isn't "pay to win" so much as it's "pay to play." Same as Netrunner.
They are both pay to play, but slightly different. Netrunner has a cap on how much you can possibly pay to have enough cards to make any conceivable deck. Imagine how much money you would have to spend in order to have enough units to build any conceivable 40K army of any point value. Not only do you have to buy a zillion Space Marines, you need to buy the same ones multiple times and customize them differently with different weapons loadouts. It's not collectible in that nothing is rare, but you can always spend more money. If you have all the Netrunner cards there is literally nothing to spend more money on.
Right now you can buy the entire Ultramarines Chapter of Space Marines for $11.5K. That's 1,200 individual models. In the lore an entire company is only deployed in the most dire of circumstances, so fielding the whole thing would be for apocalypse games (and even then it'd be questionable how effective it is against weapons that vaporise anything that isn't superheavy) I've spent $500-600 building an army that can probably go to 3K points matches. And while yeah points are a limiting factor, one can usually squeeze even the uber into a game in the mid range points-wise. However, you point is taken
40k isn't "pay to win" so much as it's "pay to play." Same as Netrunner.
Imagine how much money you would have to spend in order to have enough units to build any conceivable 40K army of any point value.
The answer to that is "infinite." You and your opponent designate a point value prior to the game, and draft units using that point total. So you two might say, "OK, this is a 1500 point game." You go to your collection and draft an army using your 1500 points.
Most people tend to have a "core" army with a few hundred points of different options that they can swap in and out, depending on the mission being played or the opponent they're likely to face. My Space Marine collection is something like 2600 points total if I could field the whole thing at once. That gives me a ton of flexibility to try different strategies in different games.
However, you could also say, "OK, let's play a 30,000 point game." So there's really no hard upper limit to the number of points that each player could field - it's all based on what the players decide at the outset.
On a more serious note, I'd like someone to devise a good Lego wargame.
Mobile Frame Zero looks really fucking awesome, though it's very simple. I haven't played it yet, because LEGO is expensive (though cheaper than anything Games Workshop) - but soon. SOON.
Couldn't you just play some version of 40k using nothing but LEGO models?
It's still not "pay to win" because both players are limited to a certain points value that they can field.
Yep. I recall one big tourney match down here when I was younger, where one bloke was crushing the competition like crazy, got right through to the semis. He was a fan of small squads of big, expensive(money or points, either way) units. Got the shit kicked out of him by the other bloke playing Orks, who used a tarpit squads(ie, big, sticky blobs of infantry that will stick enemies in place and ideally suffocate them) and a swarm strategy. Simply crushed him under the weight of his massive WAAAAAGH!
Same happens with Imperial Guard quite often - it's practically their signature tactic. And hey, when your regular guardsman costs 5 points(last I checked, anyway) and you're in a game with a decent number of points, they'll run out of bullets before you run out of bodies. Just make sure you bring a big enough dice bucket to speed up your rolls.
Is there any truth to the perception that GW will throw the balance off as they slowly roll out new army updates, forcing The Emptying of the Wallets to build an entirely new army of this type?
Is there any truth to the perception that GW will throw the balance off as they slowly roll out new army updates, forcing The Emptying of the Wallets to build an entirely new army of this type?
It's true. It's so true. That's why you have those über units. And is in fact what I was just talking about.
Is there any truth to the perception that GW will throw the balance off as they slowly roll out new army updates, forcing The Emptying of the Wallets to build an entirely new army of this type?
Partially that, partially bringing in writers who will fuck around with all the canon fluff to give their favorite army a leg-up.
Is there any truth to the perception that GW will throw the balance off as they slowly roll out new army updates, forcing The Emptying of the Wallets to build an entirely new army of this type?
They change the balance of the game with every edition release, and even with Codex releases. Slight (sometimes major) rules modifications and such. Sometimes you'll want to try out something different.
Of course, Space Marines with bolters will always be Space Marines with bolters. The models are only obsoleted when they remove them from the game entirely (*sniff* I miss Squats), or if you're playing with some kind of wonky tournament rule that says "must use most current model release."
So yes, they roll out new models and new rules to encourage constant purchase - but no update will invalidate your entire army. In fact, most of the time, your army is perfectly fine throughout multiple editions; the changes tend to encourage you to keep adding to it.
I definitely have some Space Marine models from the 1993 edition. Still perfectly valid, though they kind of look like shit compared to the new models.
That's most of how they get you to buy new stuff - they keep making their models look sexier and sexier.
I have the newest Space Marine Codex. Only real changes have to do with the new rules, such as warlords,and how to handle different chapters. After that it's just new units, which of course they rolled out sexy new models for, and a few updated models for old units, though like Pete said, that doesn't invalidate your old units.
So I was just on the "How did you find out about GeekNights?" thread and notice something kind of weird. It looks like Rym went on some sort of kick where he was editing a bunch of posts in 2006 changing seemingly random letters and words red. Whats up with that?
So I was just on the "How did you find out about GeekNights?" thread and notice something kind of weird. It looks like Rym went on some sort of kick where he was editing a bunch of posts in 2006 changing seemingly random letters and words red. Whats up with that?
Grammar and spelling mistakes are against the rules. For a time, we had moderators (as well as myself and Scott) editing posts to correct these mistakes.
1) "Irony" only applies when the outcome subverts our expectations. Scott Johnson's grammar is notoriously bad, so this should have been the anticipated outcome. This is not ironic.
2) "So irony" is not a complete thought, and neither are "so laugh" or "much funny." "There is so much irony in this post; it is quite amusing and has provoked laughter within me" would be a grammatically correct statement that still conveys your meaning properly.
3) You appear to have not used punctuation. Sentences are typically terminated with a period, indicating the end of a thought and a break in the flow of text.
Your grammar is exceptionally poor, and I am sincerely dubious of your ability to correctly moderate a forum for grammar and spelling.
A thunder-blow threw the Thor of grammar-hammer: "Irony exists mostly from the outcome routing the mere mind's desire for some mundane punning." The troll of typing still is trampled, killed by skill-wit.
Comments
And, in general, the uber high-points units are rarely worth their actual points value.
Plus, you're ignoring the "pay to lose" aspect of the game. For a long time, the Imperial Guard could only be found as metal models, making them significantly more expensive than an equivalently-powerful (or even more powerful) army.
"Pay to win" is where you can pay real money for a mechanical advantage that is simply unavailable to non-paying players.
But the game is way too fucking expensive anyhow.
On a more serious note, I'd like someone to devise a good Lego wargame.
Most people tend to have a "core" army with a few hundred points of different options that they can swap in and out, depending on the mission being played or the opponent they're likely to face. My Space Marine collection is something like 2600 points total if I could field the whole thing at once. That gives me a ton of flexibility to try different strategies in different games.
However, you could also say, "OK, let's play a 30,000 point game." So there's really no hard upper limit to the number of points that each player could field - it's all based on what the players decide at the outset.
It is definitely "pay to play." Mobile Frame Zero looks really fucking awesome, though it's very simple. I haven't played it yet, because LEGO is expensive (though cheaper than anything Games Workshop) - but soon. SOON.
Couldn't you just play some version of 40k using nothing but LEGO models?
Same happens with Imperial Guard quite often - it's practically their signature tactic. And hey, when your regular guardsman costs 5 points(last I checked, anyway) and you're in a game with a decent number of points, they'll run out of bullets before you run out of bodies. Just make sure you bring a big enough dice bucket to speed up your rolls.
Of course, Space Marines with bolters will always be Space Marines with bolters. The models are only obsoleted when they remove them from the game entirely (*sniff* I miss Squats), or if you're playing with some kind of wonky tournament rule that says "must use most current model release."
So yes, they roll out new models and new rules to encourage constant purchase - but no update will invalidate your entire army. In fact, most of the time, your army is perfectly fine throughout multiple editions; the changes tend to encourage you to keep adding to it.
I definitely have some Space Marine models from the 1993 edition. Still perfectly valid, though they kind of look like shit compared to the new models.
That's most of how they get you to buy new stuff - they keep making their models look sexier and sexier.
NO GO AWAY DON'T TAKE ME AWAY AGAIN NOOOO!!!!111!!1
I think we need to start doing that again...
1) "Irony" only applies when the outcome subverts our expectations. Scott Johnson's grammar is notoriously bad, so this should have been the anticipated outcome. This is not ironic.
2) "So irony" is not a complete thought, and neither are "so laugh" or "much funny." "There is so much irony in this post; it is quite amusing and has provoked laughter within me" would be a grammatically correct statement that still conveys your meaning properly.
3) You appear to have not used punctuation. Sentences are typically terminated with a period, indicating the end of a thought and a break in the flow of text.
Your grammar is exceptionally poor, and I am sincerely dubious of your ability to correctly moderate a forum for grammar and spelling.
A thunder-blow threw the
Thor of grammar-hammer:
"Irony exists mostly
from the outcome routing
the mere mind's desire
for some mundane punning."
The troll of typing still is
trampled, killed by skill-wit.