IF however, taking into account Heliocentric rules, where the planet is literally at the center of the system,
That's called geocentric, not heliocentric.
The thing is, the pony planet is clearly subject to gravitational forces - things fall. If there is gravity and their moon is actually a body with mass significantly lower than that of their planet, then gravity alone would cause the moon to rotate around their planet. I doubt Celestia controls all gravity everywhere, and it makes little sense for gravity not to affect their moon if it is real.
If it's at all like the real world, then their planet rotates around their sun, and the day/night cycle is caused by rotation of their planet on its axis. But then how did Nightmare Moon do what she did? Perhaps she slowed the rotation of their planet on its axis?
The entire sky of Equestria could be illusory - but then where do the heat and light come from? From whence comes the energy to sustain life?
Perhaps she slowed the rotation of their planet on its axis?
If we go to the way of real world physics that would also be a bad idea. In that case I again raise the possibility of illusion magic used to make ponies believe that eternal night has fallen.
I have a new thinking. Equestria is Middle-Earth equivalent during the second age of ponies.
Equestria is one geographic area of a fantasy world, so is Middle-Earth. They both have griffons, and Smaug the dragon. You know it was Smaug, because it already learned that it needs to respect the small creatures to some degree, was red, was the same size as Smaug, and had a huge hoard.
Middle-Earth and Equestria both used to be even more fantastical than they are "now". There used to be Balrogs all over the fuck, but now if you see one it's rare and underground. I think Equestria was the same way, it used to have magical beasts and shit all over the place. Now magic is still there, but much more rare.
It's currently the age of men, er ponies, but there are still some Elves, Dwarves, er, Buffalo, Cows, etc. out and about.
I don't think Celestia is a deity, just a really powerful wizard. The pre-Celestia history was probably full of epic fantasy shit probably resulting the planet getting seriously fucked up. Maybe it just stopped rotating and orbiting due to evil magic wars. Being so powerful, Celstia teamed up with Luna to make one area not suck. Thus they founded Equestria and began the first age of ponies. Then when Luna went bad and was banished 1000 years ago, it began the second age of ponies. That's when Celestia moved from her old destroyed castle and founded Canterlot, letting the planet and it's Everfree forest overtake the old capital.
There was clearly some sort of Silmarillion type epic fantasy shit going down before Celestia came to power.
I have a new thinking. Equestria is Middle-Earth equivalent during the second age of ponies.
Equestria is one geographic area of a fantasy world, so is Middle-Earth. They both have griffons, and Smaug the dragon. You know it was Smaug, because it already learned that it needs to respect the small creatures to some degree, was red, was the same size as Smaug, and had a huge hoard.
Middle-Earth and Equestria both used to be even more fantastical than they are "now". There used to be Balrogs all over the fuck, but now if you see one it's rare and underground. I think Equestria was the same way, it used to have magical beasts and shit all over the place. Now magic is still there, but much more rare.
In that note, there could be two ways to look at this. Would the ideas of scientific elements like gravity and planet rotation and orbit be relevant to a world where magical forces hold sway. Im not an expert on the whole aspect of middle earth, but do they ever try to reconcile the scientific and magical aspect of Middle Earth? Perhpas we could examine it more closely and see how it could fit into or support theories regarding Equestria's existence.
The main stumbling block is still the whole "controlling the rise and fall of the sun'' thing. Middle Earth didnt have that for sure. I know that the Silmarillion talked about the creation of a world in general; i dont know the specifics. I concur that your idea on an epic fantastical events happening before the current equestria holds the best comfort to my peace of mind.
If the planet stopped rotating or orbiting, that again goes against principles of science though...maybe we should just ditch the scientific aspect altogether when it comes to celestial bodies and their spheres of influences.
Just when I thought you'd found the zenith of nerdy, you go ahead and post this.
And yet, you're even now imagining the ponies digging too deep and unearthing things better left forgotten. The Everfree Forest was abandoned for a reason. Its Mythal is weakened, but resonates with the atrocities of the past age.
In episode 1, everyone is expecting the sun to rise, but it does not. In episode 2, when Nightmare Moon is defeated, they're in the old castle within the Everfree forest and it becomes daylight as you see what seems to be the sun rising abnormally fast in the background; then Celestia herself appears to emerge from the sun. So, if Celestia really does control the sun, it would seem that she controls it across the entire planet, and not just in Equestria.
On the other hand, considering the abnormally fast motion of the sun, the illusion theory has merit. This fast motion could be an illusion, where the illusory sun catches up to the place where the real sun wound be, having risen earlier; then the illusion is switched off and reality as usual continues. However, we can't just leave it at that - if that's the case, how was the illusion pulled off?
If I ever produce children's fiction that gets popular, slowly introducing steadily darker elements until the main character has to kill bulbasaur will be one of my main goals.
Just when I thought you'd found the zenith of nerdy, you go ahead and post this.
And yet, you're even now imagining the ponies digging too deep and unearthing things better left forgotten. The Everfree Forest was abandoned for a reason. Its Mythal is weakened, but resonates with the atrocities of the past age.
I would pay $3 to watch an episode of Ponies where a balrog is unearthed.
It is possible that the cosmology is nothing like our real world. The sun may literally be something other than a constantly exploding nuclear firestorm hurtling through space and time.
It is possible that the cosmology is nothing like our real world. The sun may literally be something other than a constantly exploding nuclear firestorm hurtling through space and time.
Granted. But the MLP world is clearly subject to gravity, so why wouldn't their sun and moon also be subject to gravity?
Presumably the sun is still the source of energy that sustains life on their planet. If not nuclear reactions, where does this energy come from?
It is possible that the cosmology is nothing like our real world. The sun may literally be something other than a constantly exploding nuclear firestorm hurtling through space and time.
But that goes back to the issue of them having the exact same constellations as we do. Well, minus four stars. Or were they stars at all? Perhaps they were satellites of some sort that would appear as stars! That would explain their ability to reach the moon more easily, but wouldn't explain why it took them 1000 years to get around to doing it.
Presumably the sun is still the source of energy that sustains life on their planet. If not nuclear reactions, where does this energy come from?
If MLP were an anime or a JRPG, I could explain that very easily. The sun is Celestia's father.
In fiction, I can make whatever world I want. Gravity could be derived from some source other than mass as we know it.
Clearly the world of MLP has physical laws more in common with Toontown than with real Earth. I mean, how many Loony Tunes homages do you need? Anvil in the hay? Derpy dropping a piano on Twilight? Pinkie le Pew?
The main stumbling block is still the whole "controlling the rise and fall of the sun'' thing. Middle Earth didnt have that for sure. I know that the Silmarillion talked about the creation of a world in general; i dont know the specifics. I concur that your idea on an epic fantastical events happening before the current equestria holds the best comfort to my peace of mind.
Middle-Earth was created and there was darkness until the Gods created the huge lamps that gave light to the world...until they were destroyed. Then they took the Elves to the island of the gods and created two trees that lighted the world...until they were destroyed. Finally they placed the light sources too high for the forces of evil to reach them, and thus the sun and moon were born.
Middle-Earth was created and there was darkness until the Gods created the huge lamps that gave light to the world...until they were destroyed.
If my memory serves correctly...
Illuvatar created the Ainur. He conducted them in a symphony which created the world. Morgoth played some bad notes, and wove evil into the world. Afterwards some Ainur entered the world they created, and became the Valar. The Valar created the Maiar. You can think of Illuvatar as THE God, Ainur and Valar as Angels, and Maiar as just badasses sort of like Hercules. Morgoth was Valar. Sauron was his liutenant, a maiar. Gandalf was also probably a Maiar, though I don't think it's explicitly stated.
Basically, shit used to be epic, with gods fighting, but later on only the lesser gods are fighting. Why does shit always get less epic over time? It should get more epic!
So basing off the idea on a huge event affecting the many elements of nature in the past, perhaps i'll make a list of things that now require pony intervention that seem serious
Weather pattern requires pony intervention; to a more serious extent, weather itself is made in a factory and delivered all around equestria. This seems to suggest 1) A breakdown or at least, a partial standstill, of the water cycle. This may be seen when the pegasus ponies arrange specifically for an afternoon downpour, and they supposeldly missed a previous schedule. Where percipitation is concerned, everything seems to work as normal where the rain is concerned. The presence of lightning also indicate that the presence of electrical potentials still exist. Evaporation seems to be working fine as well, as Rainbow Dash is mentioned to clear the clouds many times, she must do it often, hence clouds still form naturally. Is there then a problem with the formation of water droplets? Evaporation seems to be fine, but precipitation only occurs with pony intervention and encouragement. Is there a problem with the condensation of water vapors?
2) The inability of the formation of snowflakes and thus, snow in general. As another form of percipitation this ties in with the first point. This presents a very serious problem, ie, the states of liquids seem to have stopped responding to temperature when it comes to the process of freezing and the formation of ice crystals. Going down to the chemical level, this would suggest that such molecular bonds which dictate the structure of matter have been changed. Water molecules no longer loose energy naturally in the face of temperature changes or atmospheric pressures. The pegasus ponies somehow are able to kickstart the natural process, whether by means of innate magical ability which allows them to build with clouds etc, is not understood.
3) The changing of the seasons. Particularly the removing of snow -which makes one wonder why they simply could not wait for the snow to melt. If this is another situation similar to (2), then it would lead me to suggest that the melting point of water has become some form of barrier, with snow being unable to transfrom back into a liquid state on one side of the scale, while normal water vapors are also unable to cross this barrier to form ice crystals. Either the melting points of water are simply different in equestria, or someone screwed something up. 3a) The fact that the autumn leaves are unable to fall by themselves. Again, what has happened to stop the abscission process? Plants drop their leaves because it is no longer necessary, in the case of autumn leaves, the browning of the leaves, which shows a lack of chlorophyll that in fact, triggers the abscission, is not working. There is a whole area of hormones and chemical processes for this that makes such an assertion almost absurd. It would suggest that biological processes are somehow stunted or left in limbo at certain stages of the plant's life or at certain stages of the year. However, it is not certain if leaves cannot truly fall by themselves, or its simply because the ponies dont like to wait for nature to take its course due to tradition. Then again, the absence of any stray leaves on the ground before the Running of the Leaves is disturbing.
On the subject of biological systems and patterns: 1) The supposed inability for animals to hunt. This could be a side effect of severe domestication, and is clearly seen when the ponies treat the idea of animals taking care of themselves as almost frightening. Taking the severe domestication reasoning, it would make sense if all the animals are tended to from the momment they are born by the ponies (fluttershy), have help in making their own nests (although this seems to only apply to birds so far), and even needing pony intervention to remind certain species on the change of the seasons. However, as certain animals are clearly intelligent and sapient, it could be that they are simply taking advantage of the good will of the ponies. If so, Is Natural Selection still active in such a world?
(reproductive processes seem to be working fine, so nothing new there)
*The idea of birds requiring ponies to infrom and bring them back when the seasons change, reflects on the artificality of the weather patterns, it is almost as if the birds know that they can no longer trust their instincts and natures to determine when to migrate, due to the different states of standstill nature seems to be in.
I think i can go on, but off the top of my head, i can only think of these points. Maybe someone could elaborate or correct any mistakes i may have made..
I believe it was stated in Winter Wrap-Up that it is only in Ponyville that the seasons/weather require pony intervention, which raises even more concerns.
The are only two minor faults I can find with your thinking. One is that the ice definitely melted in winter wrap-up. They just had to cut it up with ice skates and then remove the clouds to let the sun shine on them. Also, the leaves needed help falling down, but they did successfully turn red/yellow/orange/brown on their own.
I believe it was stated in Winter Wrap-Up that it is only in Ponyville that the seasons/weather require pony intervention, which raises even more concerns.
No, this is not correct. Seasons require pony intervention in all of Equestria. However, only in Ponyville do they manage the seasons by hand. Everywhere else in Equestria they just use magic.
Middle-Earth was created and there was darkness until the Gods created the huge lamps that gave light to the world...until they were destroyed.
If my memory serves correctly...
Illuvatar created the Ainur. He conducted them in a symphony which created the world. Morgoth played some bad notes, and wove evil into the world. Afterwards some Ainur entered the world they created, and became the Valar. The Valar created the Maiar. You can think of Illuvatar as THE God, Ainur and Valar as Angels, and Maiar as just badasses sort of like Hercules. Morgoth was Valar. Sauron was his liutenant, a maiar. Gandalf was also probably a Maiar, though I don't think it's explicitly stated.
Basically, shit used to be epic, with gods fighting, but later on only the lesser gods are fighting. Why does shit always get less epic over time? It should get more epic!
All wizards are Maiar in physical form. Sauron and all Balrog are corrupted Maiar.
Things need to get less epic because the one thing most fantasy, and many actual myths, have in common is that before creation that was Chaos. Not only nothing but endless possibilities. Chaos is shaped be divine hands and so over time what was once unstable becomes stable. This is even mirrored in the big bang where intense awesomeness happened for a few minutes and then atoms started to chill out and form stable elements.
I like Scott's idea that shit used to be so epic the entire planet got fucked the hell up - let's call it the cataclysm.
Consider this - if seasons do not occur naturally in the pony planet, then where did ponies get the idea for seasons, and why do they bother? One explanation is that there used to be naturally occurring seasons, but they no longer occur, and so the ponies now maintain the seasons themselves. In the real world, seasons occur because the planet's axis of rotation is tilted at an angle from being perpendicular to the orbital plane. Perhaps in the cataclysm the pony planet's axis became perpendicular, causing the loss of the seasons?
A domestication process explains the way in which both the plants and animals of Equestria are so heavily dependent upon ponies. It's possible that this process was accelerated by residual magic after the cataclysm. Basically, shortly after the cataclysm, ponies took great care of all living things, for fear of extinction. However, due to the residual magic, there was a preponderance of mutations among the animals. In our world, such high mutation rates could be disastrous, but in their world magic has inherent life-preserving properties. Consequently, the various plants and animals of their planet adapted rapidly to the care of the ponies, and now they are completely dependent upon them.
I'm not sure about the issues with the water cycle, however.
One explanation is that there used to be naturally occurring seasons, but they no longer occur, and so the ponies now maintain the seasons themselves.
Even harder core.
Celestia remembers the seasons, and mandates that they be manually changed because she enjoys them. Quote Celestia, "Autumn is one of my favorite seasons..."
So basing off the idea on a huge event affecting the many elements of nature in the past, perhaps i'll make a list of things that now require pony intervention that seem serious..
But that goes back to the issue of them having the exact same constellations as we do.
I never noticed the constellations within the show, but I'll take your word for it and go out on a limb - perhaps they are the same constellations. Also, Clarke's Third Law states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Perhaps Equestrian magic is just a technological development whose nature is long lost to the ponies, a la the Warhammer 40k universe; however, magic was such a user-friendly technology that some of them have evolved to use it? Perhaps Equestria is located on a post-apocalyptic Earth?
I never noticed the constellations within the show, but I'll take your word for it and go out on a limb - perhaps they are the same constellations.
Quote Twilight Sparkle when instructing Rarity on how to make her gown. "Orion has three stars on his belt, not five."
Oh snap! That means that not only are their stars positioned the same way as ours, they remember constellations in human shapes that were invented by humans. +9000 points to the post-apocalyptic Earth theory.
The question remains, why would ponies know about humans? Did they co-exist, or was there a transformation of humans into ponies?
Also, what do modern ponies know about humans? Do they only remember them as the stuff of myth and legend?
Comments
The thing is, the pony planet is clearly subject to gravitational forces - things fall. If there is gravity and their moon is actually a body with mass significantly lower than that of their planet, then gravity alone would cause the moon to rotate around their planet. I doubt Celestia controls all gravity everywhere, and it makes little sense for gravity not to affect their moon if it is real.
If it's at all like the real world, then their planet rotates around their sun, and the day/night cycle is caused by rotation of their planet on its axis. But then how did Nightmare Moon do what she did? Perhaps she slowed the rotation of their planet on its axis?
The entire sky of Equestria could be illusory - but then where do the heat and light come from? From whence comes the energy to sustain life?
Equestria is one geographic area of a fantasy world, so is Middle-Earth. They both have griffons, and Smaug the dragon. You know it was Smaug, because it already learned that it needs to respect the small creatures to some degree, was red, was the same size as Smaug, and had a huge hoard.
Middle-Earth and Equestria both used to be even more fantastical than they are "now". There used to be Balrogs all over the fuck, but now if you see one it's rare and underground. I think Equestria was the same way, it used to have magical beasts and shit all over the place. Now magic is still there, but much more rare.
It's currently the age of men, er ponies, but there are still some Elves, Dwarves, er, Buffalo, Cows, etc. out and about.
I don't think Celestia is a deity, just a really powerful wizard. The pre-Celestia history was probably full of epic fantasy shit probably resulting the planet getting seriously fucked up. Maybe it just stopped rotating and orbiting due to evil magic wars. Being so powerful, Celstia teamed up with Luna to make one area not suck. Thus they founded Equestria and began the first age of ponies. Then when Luna went bad and was banished 1000 years ago, it began the second age of ponies. That's when Celestia moved from her old destroyed castle and founded Canterlot, letting the planet and it's Everfree forest overtake the old capital.
There was clearly some sort of Silmarillion type epic fantasy shit going down before Celestia came to power.
The main stumbling block is still the whole "controlling the rise and fall of the sun'' thing. Middle Earth didnt have that for sure. I know that the Silmarillion talked about the creation of a world in general; i dont know the specifics. I concur that your idea on an epic fantastical events happening before the current equestria holds the best comfort to my peace of mind.
If the planet stopped rotating or orbiting, that again goes against principles of science though...maybe we should just ditch the scientific aspect altogether when it comes to celestial bodies and their spheres of influences.
On the other hand, considering the abnormally fast motion of the sun, the illusion theory has merit. This fast motion could be an illusion, where the illusory sun catches up to the place where the real sun wound be, having risen earlier; then the illusion is switched off and reality as usual continues. However, we can't just leave it at that - if that's the case, how was the illusion pulled off?
Presumably the sun is still the source of energy that sustains life on their planet. If not nuclear reactions, where does this energy come from?
Illuvatar created the Ainur. He conducted them in a symphony which created the world. Morgoth played some bad notes, and wove evil into the world. Afterwards some Ainur entered the world they created, and became the Valar. The Valar created the Maiar. You can think of Illuvatar as THE God, Ainur and Valar as Angels, and Maiar as just badasses sort of like Hercules. Morgoth was Valar. Sauron was his liutenant, a maiar. Gandalf was also probably a Maiar, though I don't think it's explicitly stated.
Basically, shit used to be epic, with gods fighting, but later on only the lesser gods are fighting. Why does shit always get less epic over time? It should get more epic!
Weather pattern requires pony intervention; to a more serious extent, weather itself is made in a factory and delivered all around equestria. This seems to suggest
1) A breakdown or at least, a partial standstill, of the water cycle. This may be seen when the pegasus ponies arrange specifically for an afternoon downpour, and they supposeldly missed a previous schedule. Where percipitation is concerned, everything seems to work as normal where the rain is concerned. The presence of lightning also indicate that the presence of electrical potentials still exist. Evaporation seems to be working fine as well, as Rainbow Dash is mentioned to clear the clouds many times, she must do it often, hence clouds still form naturally. Is there then a problem with the formation of water droplets? Evaporation seems to be fine, but precipitation only occurs with pony intervention and encouragement. Is there a problem with the condensation of water vapors?
2) The inability of the formation of snowflakes and thus, snow in general. As another form of percipitation this ties in with the first point. This presents a very serious problem, ie, the states of liquids seem to have stopped responding to temperature when it comes to the process of freezing and the formation of ice crystals. Going down to the chemical level, this would suggest that such molecular bonds which dictate the structure of matter have been changed. Water molecules no longer loose energy naturally in the face of temperature changes or atmospheric pressures. The pegasus ponies somehow are able to kickstart the natural process, whether by means of innate magical ability which allows them to build with clouds etc, is not understood.
3) The changing of the seasons. Particularly the removing of snow -which makes one wonder why they simply could not wait for the snow to melt. If this is another situation similar to (2), then it would lead me to suggest that the melting point of water has become some form of barrier, with snow being unable to transfrom back into a liquid state on one side of the scale, while normal water vapors are also unable to cross this barrier to form ice crystals. Either the melting points of water are simply different in equestria, or someone screwed something up.
3a) The fact that the autumn leaves are unable to fall by themselves. Again, what has happened to stop the abscission process? Plants drop their leaves because it is no longer necessary, in the case of autumn leaves, the browning of the leaves, which shows a lack of chlorophyll that in fact, triggers the abscission, is not working. There is a whole area of hormones and chemical processes for this that makes such an assertion almost absurd. It would suggest that biological processes are somehow stunted or left in limbo at certain stages of the plant's life or at certain stages of the year. However, it is not certain if leaves cannot truly fall by themselves, or its simply because the ponies dont like to wait for nature to take its course due to tradition. Then again, the absence of any stray leaves on the ground before the Running of the Leaves is disturbing.
On the subject of biological systems and patterns:
1) The supposed inability for animals to hunt. This could be a side effect of severe domestication, and is clearly seen when the ponies treat the idea of animals taking care of themselves as almost frightening. Taking the severe domestication reasoning, it would make sense if all the animals are tended to from the momment they are born by the ponies (fluttershy), have help in making their own nests (although this seems to only apply to birds so far), and even needing pony intervention to remind certain species on the change of the seasons. However, as certain animals are clearly intelligent and sapient, it could be that they are simply taking advantage of the good will of the ponies. If so, Is Natural Selection still active in such a world?
(reproductive processes seem to be working fine, so nothing new there)
*The idea of birds requiring ponies to infrom and bring them back when the seasons change, reflects on the artificality of the weather patterns, it is almost as if the birds know that they can no longer trust their instincts and natures to determine when to migrate, due to the different states of standstill nature seems to be in.
I think i can go on, but off the top of my head, i can only think of these points. Maybe someone could elaborate or correct any mistakes i may have made..
Things need to get less epic because the one thing most fantasy, and many actual myths, have in common is that before creation that was Chaos. Not only nothing but endless possibilities. Chaos is shaped be divine hands and so over time what was once unstable becomes stable. This is even mirrored in the big bang where intense awesomeness happened for a few minutes and then atoms started to chill out and form stable elements.
Consider this - if seasons do not occur naturally in the pony planet, then where did ponies get the idea for seasons, and why do they bother? One explanation is that there used to be naturally occurring seasons, but they no longer occur, and so the ponies now maintain the seasons themselves. In the real world, seasons occur because the planet's axis of rotation is tilted at an angle from being perpendicular to the orbital plane. Perhaps in the cataclysm the pony planet's axis became perpendicular, causing the loss of the seasons?
A domestication process explains the way in which both the plants and animals of Equestria are so heavily dependent upon ponies. It's possible that this process was accelerated by residual magic after the cataclysm. Basically, shortly after the cataclysm, ponies took great care of all living things, for fear of extinction. However, due to the residual magic, there was a preponderance of mutations among the animals. In our world, such high mutation rates could be disastrous, but in their world magic has inherent life-preserving properties. Consequently, the various plants and animals of their planet adapted rapidly to the care of the ponies, and now they are completely dependent upon them.
I'm not sure about the issues with the water cycle, however.
Celestia remembers the seasons, and mandates that they be manually changed because she enjoys them. Quote Celestia, "Autumn is one of my favorite seasons..."
Also, Clarke's Third Law states that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Perhaps Equestrian magic is just a technological development whose nature is long lost to the ponies, a la the Warhammer 40k universe; however, magic was such a user-friendly technology that some of them have evolved to use it? Perhaps Equestria is located on a post-apocalyptic Earth?
+9000 points to the post-apocalyptic Earth theory.
The question remains, why would ponies know about humans? Did they co-exist, or was there a transformation of humans into ponies?
Also, what do modern ponies know about humans? Do they only remember them as the stuff of myth and legend?