Hey guys, I didn't want to get into a debate about DRM, or about the availability of the show. I'm just really surprised how little you value something, in monetary terms, that you value so highly in other ways. This show is taking up huge amounts of your time in online discussions, with watching the show, with thinking about it, chatting about with friends, trying to convince others of its worth, in making fan art and photoshop composites, and much more besides. What I find so unbelievable is that you then think $3 is way too much to even consider paying.
Much of the value of the show is not being created by Hasbro, but by the community around the show. I don't think I should be rewarding Hasbro for that which is being done by fans. Yes, they made a good show, one with significant potential, but that isn't worth $3 per episode to me.
"There is nothing on earth I like enough to pay that amount of money."
I can't fathom that kind of mindset. If I am a fan of something, I'll often find myself splashing out on something. Even when I was a poor student, I'd scrape together enough money to take trains across the country to see shows of my favourite artists. It would have been possible to track down recordings of the shows afterwards, or find other recordings of similar shows, but that wasn't the point. Showing support to the artists themselves was the big deal. I bought tickets to see a big show in London once, and the night before the same show was broadcast live on Radio 1. The next night I saw the show live, and was happy to have paid for both the ticket and the train there and back.
Unlike Scott, I do see $3 per 22-minute episode as a possibility. However, the amount I'm willing to pay depends on how good the show is overall, and on how much money I have. If I was earning $100k a year, I'd be willing to spend much more than I am willing to spend as a university student. I can see how Rym would be willing to spend $3 per episode on this show, but he has a lot more money than I do.
If you really like something, to the point where you are trying to convince others to watch or take part in the same thing, is there any amount of money you are willing to spend, if that is the requested price as set by the creators? In this case, the production company (or whoever) is asking for $1 to rent it on iTunes, or $3 so you can stream it as many times as you want. Forget the question of DRM, or of not being able to get it outside of the US for now. Just how much would you have to like something before you paid $3 for a TV show?
Do you EVER see yourself paying for TV shows on an episode-by-episode basis?
Yes. For this show it would have to be somewhere under $1 per episode to keep (not rent), high quality (HD, colors not screwed up), and DRM free. Were I able to use their material to freely create my own derivative works without fear of repercussion, I'd pay more. In other words, if not for copyright law, I'd be willing to give them more money.
I'm really curious, because I'm of the mindset that if I'm not willing to spend money on something, I'd rather not bother. I don't watch more than one or two seasons of ANY TV shows per year, but then again TV isn't my main form of entertainment. That is books (which I pay for 80% of what I read) and movies (which I normally rent) and music (I buy a few albums per month). I want to pay for these things, and it isn't just about making sure the artists and companies that produce the entertainment get money. It's about lining up my own priorities.
If I'm getting something for free, I value it less. I made a decision that the only TV I watch would be something I paid for. This way, I'm putting a dollar amount on my own time and attention.
That's your own personal approach, and it is one I see as highly flawed. If there is something you would've paid full price for at, say, 75% off, does it become worth less to you? Do you avoid buying it as a result? I don't see how getting something for free should change its value to me in any way. If someone gives me something as a present, should I value it less? I don't have money to throw away on simply "lining up my priorities" - if I can get something for free, it's clearly better than spending money on it.
To me, spending money is only justified because there is a need to support the creators and encourage future media. The stated purpose of U.S. copyright law is "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" which is exactly the principle that I stand for. In the absence of an artificial limit on supply, the value of copies goes to zero. If I were to pay money for a Blu-Ray copy of MLP, I wouldn't see it as "buying the show" - the disc has essentially no economic value, and in a vacuum paying money for it is ludicrous. However, I do see the need to support the creators of the show, and buying the Blu-Ray would appear to be the best way in which to do it.
I will treat this show the same way I treat Doctor Who, I will download the episodes in HD and when a proper release comes out in BD I will buy it. Or I could also save it in my DVR.
75 cents times 26 is 19.50, which is close enough to $20, which is what I would pay for an MLP box set.
So here's my original point: how many episodes have you seen for free up until this point? And how many episodes are left in the season? If you were to buy every episode left in this season from iTunes, how much would it be? I never expected anyone to pay $3 per episode for a whole season. My point was that now, when asked for $3 per episode, you aren't even willing to think "You know what? Why wait for the DVD box set, as I've already seen most of the episodes until now for free? Why not just, as a big fan of the show, hand over some dollars now as a sign of my appreciation?"
In THIS case, would you ever see yourself paying $3 for a TV episode? Don't tell me how much you pay for movies and games and media and guitars and comics. I know all about that. Listing your monthly spending is not a support of any argument either way in this case.
I find it harder to separate different kinds of media into different price sets, I guess. If I am a fan of something, no matter what the media, I'm happy to pay the asking price, or even more, despite what a similar form of media may cost. As an example, I pay $10 maybe four or five times per year to jugglers who are releasing long movies featuring their latest material. Most jugglers give away their juggling videos for free, as I do, but some people charge for the download or streaming. And I happily pay it, because I am a fan of their work. Wes Peden is releasing a video every day at the moment, for free, but in the past, when he has asked for money for a download, I've paid no problem at all. I WANTED to pay, and have sometimes paid twice, just to show my support.
I listen to all kinds of podcasts. The vast majority are put out fro free, and they don't ask for money. A few ask for money, but are are happy to continue providing the shows for free anyway. A few others have a yearly membership program, where you can give money and get some bonus shows. I happily pay the yearly membership, even though, if I wanted to, I could probably get the bonus episodes for free.
So it has nothing to do with the "How much I would normally pay for X style of media?" question. If I wanted to, I could watch TV for free, all day and every day. That's not the point. The point is that for some TV shows, I want to buy the DVD box set for real money.
Of course, I just bought a new electric piano for well over a thousand euro, and I've spent three times that much on camera gear over the past year, so my priorities are pretty clear. I spend far more money on experiences and skills than on passive entertainment. But, you know, when it comes to passive entertainment, and if I'm a fan, I find it very easy to spend the asking price on a new release. Saying "I can get other media for free" or "all media from the past is available for free" hardly even comes into my mind.
So here's my original point: how many episodes have you seen for free up until this point? And how many episodes are left in the season? If you were to buy every episode left in this season from iTunes, how much would it be? I never expected anyone to pay $3 per episode for a whole season. My point was that now, when asked for $3 per episode, you aren't even willing to think "You know what? Why wait for the DVD box set, as I've already seen most of the episodes until now for free? Why not just, as a big fan of the show, hand over some dollars now as a sign of my appreciation?"
In THIS case, would you ever see yourself paying $3 for a TV episode? Don't tell me how much you pay for movies and games and media and guitars and comics. I know all about that. Listing your monthly spending is not a support of any argument either way in this case.
Yes, I'd be willing to pay $3 for a couple of episodes as a method of supporting the creators, but not if the episodes are DRM'd.
Given multiple ways of supporting the creators, I'm going to choose whichever is the best one. While I do like downloads released in a timely fashion, and that's something I wouldn't mind showing support for, in this case I am much more in favour of a high-quality 1080p Blu-Ray release than episodes with washed out colors and iTunes DRM.
I think part of us wanting to see the new episodes as they come out is to be part of this online discussion that is super hot right now. I wanted to be able to discuss what happened in this latest episode, especially after hearing that it was a really good one. A good analogy might be made to a sports fan. Let's just say, for an example, that you are a fan of the Boston Bruins. It is true that you could wait until the end of the season and consider how they did as a whole for the season, how they did in the playoffs, etc. However, if you hear that there was an awesome goal in last night's game, don't you want to see that? Our excitement and desire to see the new episodes is similar. One thing that is different between sports and MLP though, is the amount of merchandise available and what is out there. If you want to show your support for the Bruins, you can buy a hat, a T shirt, a hockey puck with their logo on it, etc. You could also buy one of their games on iTunes or subscribe to the NHL Network, I'm sure some money from that goes to the team. There are many ways to give your money to support the Boston Bruins, in other words. With the ponies, our current options are iTunes or the poorly made toys. It's harder to directly support the show right now, but I think a lot of the current fans WILL buy that box set as a show of support, and probably would buy the toys(at least a Rainbow Dash) when they get good. Right now our options are fairly limited and relatively poor. If you told me I could get some quality MLP figures, I'd go grab them with my next paycheck. I do think $3 is too much for an episode, but if I could get it in a way I liked, I would pay it to support the show. I probably would not buy every single show, just some favorites, just as you wouldn't buy every Bruins shirt or indeed, every game the Bruins play in a season. Does that make sense?
If you were to buy every episode left in this season from iTunes, how much would it be? I never expected anyone to pay $3 per episode for a whole season.
Yeah, there are only a handful of episodes left this season, so it wouldn't be so bad to pay the $3 for each one. Too bad there is DRM and broken colors. Also, that's not a long-term solution, because there is confirmation of a second season of 24 more episodes that should start late this year.
I guess. If I am a fan of something, no matter what the media, I'm happy to pay the asking price,
I'm happy to pay, sometimes, but it has no relation to the asking price. Prices for creative works are all over the map, and often make no sense. Thus, deciding how much to pay, and what, if anything, to buy, is a much more complicated procedure than buying a commodity. When you buy a commodity, say SD-RAM, you can just get the most MB per dollar, nice and simple. But a $15 hardcover book by your favorite author vs. $15 for a huge pile of old Genesis games on Steam, that's not so straightforward.
The point is that asking prices are fucked up. For example, look at Marvel comics pricing of hardcovers and trades. Sometimes you'll see a hardcover collecting 8 issues be more expensive than a book collecting 6 issues! There's absolutely no consistency whatsoever. Because the asking prices have no logic, people just wait for all those books to end up at bargain bins at conventions, so they can get them for 50% off or more.
These days I find myself shelling out for media mostly in three different ways.
One is for new hotnesses that are time sensitive in some way. New volume of 20th Century Boys? Every volume is a cliffhanger, I'm desperate for the next one. Tron in 3D IMAX? It won't be showing forever, gotta go. Broadway Show? See it before the original cast gets swapped out or the show sells out or cancels. New multiplayer video game? Better get in on it while people are still playing it.
Two is for old stuff that is a bulk bargain. Netflix subscription. Bone One volume edition. Huge collection of games on Steam in a big bundle for a low price. DVD box set that has a whole lot of episodes for not much money at all. Imagine if iTunes sold the Beatles not individually, but in bulk. I'd pay probably $15 for a 100% complete high-bitrate, properly tagged, no-DRM, bundle of every Beatles track ever ever ever. I imagine they would be making a lot more money if they sold it that way than they do now.
Three is for things with reasonable prices that are usually weird indie shit you won't ever see again. Like, if I go to the MoCCA Festival, and I see a weird mini-comic about talking vegetables. Never going to see that again. Or how about http://insideastarfilledsky.net/ or http://sleepisdeath.net/ by Jason Rohrer?
Humble Indie Bundle encompasses two and three together plus charity bonus. That's why they brought in such an insane amount of cash. Definitely way more than Hasbro has made from MLP on iTunes. http://www.humblebundle.com/. If Hasbro would release the MLP for $20 a season full HD 1080p, everypony would pay, and they would be making way more bank than they are making now. Instead, they suffer lower revenues without knowing or caring, and we suffer the hassle of seeing the show. C'est la vie.
Even more than the burlesque, the fact that EVERY OTHER CHARACTER reacted precisely the same way that I did was absolutely priceless.
I didn't think it was that bad, and so I mostly just felt sorry for Pinkie.
Even though it was funny, I really didn't like how the episode ended. It was too rushed, too forced, and did not involve nearly as much friendship as I thought was appropriate. It would have at least been better if the buffalo girl had maybe gone to appaloosa and had an apple before, and tried to convince the others, but the way it was done in the episode came WAY out of left field.
It was probably the funniest episode yet, and on the whole I think the ending worked okay. The episode wasn't really that much about friendship, but rather conflict resolution; while the ending was a little sudden, it's quite clear that a lot of harm was done that could have been avoided if they had talked the problem out before resorting to violence.
Also, the buffalo chief saying "What would you have me do, Rainbow Dash?" is an absolute classic scene.
That happens at least twice: once when he's going on about history, and once when he gets pie in the face. I'm guessing you mean the first, though. Regardless, the chief buffalo was awesome.
That happens at least twice: once when he's going on about history, and once when he gets pie in the face. I'm guessing you mean the first, though. Regardless, the chief buffalo was awesome.
There's another time when he says "the time for action is upon us" after Pinkie's performance.
The only things that are available on cable that I would watch if I had it are the NHL, MLP, and maybe F1. Not worth $30 or even $50+ a month.
Nuri, is your DVR HD?
We pay about $100 a month for our internet + cable. The additional amount for the cable after paying for internet is not really all that much. Plus, we get BBC. I believe the DVR is HD, but I'm not sure if Hub is an HD channel or not. At any rate, if you want shit off my DVR, you're going to have to come out and get it. :P
Hah. My roommate quite not surprisingly judged my watching of My Little Pony. But knowing that he has weakness toward internet memes and Kanye West I had a perfect video clip to show him that there is something worth watching that has My LIttle Pony in it. So thanks Rym for that one. Still haven gotten him to watch a single episode, but eventually, maybe.
I found some evidence for my theory that Celestia is either much less powerful than you think, or uses almost all her power managing the sun.
In Sonic Rainboom, Rarity is falling to her death. Celestia just lets the Wonderbolts take care of it. She doesn't even lift a hoof. If she can lift the sun, she can telekinese some ponies back up to Cloudsdale, or at least slow them down so they don't die on impact with the ground. Instead, she leaves it all to Rainbow Dash.
She did trap Luna to the moon for thousand years, so she isn't totally powerless. I'm thinking that she just doesn't want to use her powers, maybe that's because she doesn't want to risk becoming like Night Mare Moon, or because when you start helping one pony with your god tier powers you kinda have to help them all. She has liven thousand years after that time seeing one pony to fall to her death might not be so big deal anymore. She'll uses her powers only when they are absolutely necessary to keep Equestria safe.
Maybe it's like Jhonen Vasquez's vision of God. Yeah, he's got all of these godly powers, but he's napping since Creation because it's a lot of work bringing the universe out of nothing.
Celestia might be too busy handling the entire celestial sphere to spend any energy helping anypony that Rainbow Dash could take care of.
I already mentioned that she used magic items to help her with that. She wasn't powerful enough to do it alone.
Right you are, didn't think it like that.
Also there has been little bit of discussion where came the 1000 years timelimit for the imprisonment. I think it's because Celestia didn't want to kill/lock away for eternity her sister, but wasn't able to do unpowering spell without real magic of friendship, thus she needed Twilight to get friends and deal with Night Mare Moon.
Comments
I don't see how getting something for free should change its value to me in any way. If someone gives me something as a present, should I value it less?
I don't have money to throw away on simply "lining up my priorities" - if I can get something for free, it's clearly better than spending money on it.
To me, spending money is only justified because there is a need to support the creators and encourage future media. The stated purpose of U.S. copyright law is "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts" which is exactly the principle that I stand for. In the absence of an artificial limit on supply, the value of copies goes to zero. If I were to pay money for a Blu-Ray copy of MLP, I wouldn't see it as "buying the show" - the disc has essentially no economic value, and in a vacuum paying money for it is ludicrous. However, I do see the need to support the creators of the show, and buying the Blu-Ray would appear to be the best way in which to do it.
Or I could also save it in my DVR.
In THIS case, would you ever see yourself paying $3 for a TV episode? Don't tell me how much you pay for movies and games and media and guitars and comics. I know all about that. Listing your monthly spending is not a support of any argument either way in this case.
I find it harder to separate different kinds of media into different price sets, I guess. If I am a fan of something, no matter what the media, I'm happy to pay the asking price, or even more, despite what a similar form of media may cost. As an example, I pay $10 maybe four or five times per year to jugglers who are releasing long movies featuring their latest material. Most jugglers give away their juggling videos for free, as I do, but some people charge for the download or streaming. And I happily pay it, because I am a fan of their work. Wes Peden is releasing a video every day at the moment, for free, but in the past, when he has asked for money for a download, I've paid no problem at all. I WANTED to pay, and have sometimes paid twice, just to show my support.
I listen to all kinds of podcasts. The vast majority are put out fro free, and they don't ask for money. A few ask for money, but are are happy to continue providing the shows for free anyway. A few others have a yearly membership program, where you can give money and get some bonus shows. I happily pay the yearly membership, even though, if I wanted to, I could probably get the bonus episodes for free.
So it has nothing to do with the "How much I would normally pay for X style of media?" question. If I wanted to, I could watch TV for free, all day and every day. That's not the point. The point is that for some TV shows, I want to buy the DVD box set for real money.
Of course, I just bought a new electric piano for well over a thousand euro, and I've spent three times that much on camera gear over the past year, so my priorities are pretty clear. I spend far more money on experiences and skills than on passive entertainment. But, you know, when it comes to passive entertainment, and if I'm a fan, I find it very easy to spend the asking price on a new release. Saying "I can get other media for free" or "all media from the past is available for free" hardly even comes into my mind.
Given multiple ways of supporting the creators, I'm going to choose whichever is the best one. While I do like downloads released in a timely fashion, and that's something I wouldn't mind showing support for, in this case I am much more in favour of a high-quality 1080p Blu-Ray release than episodes with washed out colors and iTunes DRM.
The point is that asking prices are fucked up. For example, look at Marvel comics pricing of hardcovers and trades. Sometimes you'll see a hardcover collecting 8 issues be more expensive than a book collecting 6 issues! There's absolutely no consistency whatsoever. Because the asking prices have no logic, people just wait for all those books to end up at bargain bins at conventions, so they can get them for 50% off or more.
These days I find myself shelling out for media mostly in three different ways.
One is for new hotnesses that are time sensitive in some way. New volume of 20th Century Boys? Every volume is a cliffhanger, I'm desperate for the next one. Tron in 3D IMAX? It won't be showing forever, gotta go. Broadway Show? See it before the original cast gets swapped out or the show sells out or cancels. New multiplayer video game? Better get in on it while people are still playing it.
Two is for old stuff that is a bulk bargain. Netflix subscription. Bone One volume edition. Huge collection of games on Steam in a big bundle for a low price. DVD box set that has a whole lot of episodes for not much money at all. Imagine if iTunes sold the Beatles not individually, but in bulk. I'd pay probably $15 for a 100% complete high-bitrate, properly tagged, no-DRM, bundle of every Beatles track ever ever ever. I imagine they would be making a lot more money if they sold it that way than they do now.
Three is for things with reasonable prices that are usually weird indie shit you won't ever see again. Like, if I go to the MoCCA Festival, and I see a weird mini-comic about talking vegetables. Never going to see that again. Or how about http://insideastarfilledsky.net/ or http://sleepisdeath.net/ by Jason Rohrer?
Humble Indie Bundle encompasses two and three together plus charity bonus. That's why they brought in such an insane amount of cash. Definitely way more than Hasbro has made from MLP on iTunes. http://www.humblebundle.com/. If Hasbro would release the MLP for $20 a season full HD 1080p, everypony would pay, and they would be making way more bank than they are making now. Instead, they suffer lower revenues without knowing or caring, and we suffer the hassle of seeing the show. C'est la vie.
Also, the buffalo chief saying "What would you have me do, Rainbow Dash?" is an absolute classic scene.
Regardless, the chief buffalo was awesome.
Also, this:
So thanks Rym for that one. Still haven gotten him to watch a single episode, but eventually, maybe.
In Sonic Rainboom, Rarity is falling to her death. Celestia just lets the Wonderbolts take care of it. She doesn't even lift a hoof. If she can lift the sun, she can telekinese some ponies back up to Cloudsdale, or at least slow them down so they don't die on impact with the ground. Instead, she leaves it all to Rainbow Dash.
I'm telling you, Celestia is a couch potato.
Celestia might be too busy handling the entire celestial sphere to spend any energy helping anypony that Rainbow Dash could take care of.
Also there has been little bit of discussion where came the 1000 years timelimit for the imprisonment. I think it's because Celestia didn't want to kill/lock away for eternity her sister, but wasn't able to do unpowering spell without real magic of friendship, thus she needed Twilight to get friends and deal with Night Mare Moon.