I would argue that a work of Anime is anything that fits the Anime style. That is, anything that shares the anime aesthetic and/or uses well established anime conventions (animation, cultural references, meta/canon/context). I don't see why "made in Japan" is a requirement.
There's no such thing as anime style. If you think there is, you haven't seen enough anime.
I'm not sure I agree that Anime is a medium. Maybe a collection of styles. Digital animation is a medium. Cell animation is a medium. Anime? Not sure that's a medium. I could be wrong, I don't know the official definition.
It's not a genre, that's for sure, or if it is, it's a genre that includes nearly all other genres as sub-genres.
I would argue that a work of Anime is anything that fits the Anime style. That is, anything that shares the anime aesthetic and/or uses well established anime conventions (animation, cultural references, meta/canon/context). I don't see why "made in Japan" is a requirement.
There's no such thing as anime style. If you think there is, you haven't seen enough anime.
I concede that "style" is the wrong word. Not sure what a better word is yet.
I guess it's kind of like how I could make an argument that while I could make a modern film inspired by the conventions of the French New Wave, I couldn't really call it part of the French New Wave. Anime is not a set style as well. There are so many animation styles just inside Japan, it's difficult to say what exactly is "anime-styled." I tend to just call everything animation, and if I use the term anime, it is usually just animation from the Japanese industry. So many things are anime inspired, like the powerpuff girls and such, that to use anime for all of it would get confusing really fast.
I thought of another example. Anime as a word among animation people is like le bandes desinee. An example of a medium (animation, comics) from a location (Japan, France-Belgium) that often but not always shares certain artistic and cultural traits. Language is a big factor too.
I guess my main objection is to categorize something based solely upon its country of origin. seems backwards.
That's because anime fans are a backwards people who claim that Bleach and Soul Eater are art but look down upon Duck Amuck. I don't like to identify as an anime fan, I'd rather identify as a fan of animation or a fan of cartoons, but both of those have implications that I don't watch foreign works. This argument is based in pre-Menken philosophy of word definitions where we defined things based on how the culture should treat them instead of how the culture does treat them. Due to the culture of anime fandom, the national-based definition is just the more useful and usable one.
I can't tell if we're going to kill each other or be best buds when we meet at CTcon.
I guess my main objection is to categorize something based solely upon its country of origin. Seems backwards.
We do this with other things, like Wine and Whiskey. Why not animation?
Not quite, though. Champagne is from France, sure. But just about every other type of wine could be made anywhere and still considered a Merlot, or a Noir, or whatever. It's a weak analogy.
I just love all kinds of animation. The problem Greg states is totally true. Art is often defined by the time period and cultural context through which it was created. The anime fans have this problem, though, of denying the quality of everything that does not come from Japan. I love Avatar and Scott Pilgrim more than many anime and manga, but many people look down on it because of prejudice.
The anime fans have this problem, though, of denying the quality of everything that does not come from Japan.
That's because a huge chunk of the population of "Anime" fans are actually just Japan-o-philes who happen to also like Anime (often mostly because it's Japanese.)
These are generally the same people that don't realize that Japanese culture is intensely xenophobic and that otaku are generally regarded with distaste. In other words, mainstream Japanese people can't stand them, which is sort of ironic in a funny way.
The whole "obsession without the context" thing is too bad. You can be an animation fan and into Japanese culture and have a perfectly nice time living in Japan. You just can't be crazy and ignorant.
My friend's girlfriends' parents still call him "Gaijin-san" every time he goes over their house for a visit, which I'm pretty sure is roughly equivalent to "Mr. Nigger".
My friend's girlfriends' parents still call him "Gaijin-san" every time he goes over their house for a visit, which I'm pretty sure is roughly equivalent to "Mr. Nigger".
Not so much. It's more like "Mr. Foreigner". It's just a shortening of gaikokujin because, let's face it, it's a mouthful. There are a lot of shortened words in Japanese, just like any other language (amefuto is the most adorable name for American Football).
I guess my main objection is to categorize something based solely upon its country of origin. Seems backwards.
We do this with other things, like Wine and Whiskey. Why not animation?
Not quite, though. Anime is from Japan, sure. But just about every other type of animation could be made anywhere and still considered a cartoon, or CG animation, or whatever. It's a weak analogy.
Fixed that for you. Some things are defined by where they are made. Scotch is made in Scotland or it's just a whiskey. Bourbon is made in the US, not anywhere else. Not to say you can't make whiskey else where but if you do it's not Bourbon.
And while Merlot and Pinot Noir are types of wines, Champaign is from the Champaign region, other wise it's just sparkling white wine. They are nearly the same exact things too.
All Champaign is sparkling white wine, not all sparkling white wine is Champaign. All Bourbon is whiskey but not all whiskey is Bourbon. All Anime is animation but not all animation is Anime.
It's something we do and it's a bit weird but it's done else where as well.
And while Merlot and Pinot Noir are types of wines, Champagne is from the Champagne region, other wise it's just sparkling white wine. They are nearly the same exact things too.
All Champagne is sparkling white wine, not all sparkling white wine is Champagne. All Bourbon is whiskey but not all whiskey is Bourbon. All Anime is animation but not all animation is Anime.
It's something we do and it's a bit weird but it's done else where as well.
Sorry, had to correct that spelling. The food examples are similar to anime, but not quite the same - for examples like that and certain place-specific types of cheese, the varieties are all expected to have very similar taste and preparation styles, which would be somewhat analogous to all anime being expected to have the same art style.
Gomi's analogy to la bandes dessinées is perhaps the better one, because anime styles tend to be similar and mainly influenced by each other rather than outside groups. Another accurate analogy, I think, would be to Bollywood and early Hong Kong action cinema - the works have a lot of common features and tropes that distinguish themselves from films not made in the region.
Restricting anime to mean "works of animation produced in Japan" is, I think, a significantly more useful definition than "things that look like anime" due to anime's signficant interal variation in art style.
I'm not arguing that it's not an acceptef convention. I'm arguing that it's regressive, socially and artistically, to categorize art this way. It leads to artists being told that their work is derivative or inauthentic based solely on where the artist lives.
I'm not arguing that it's not an acceptef convention. I'm arguing that it's regressive, socially and artistically, to categorize art this way. It leads to artists being told that their work is derivative or inauthentic based solely on where the artist lives.
Uh what? I think this problem is just something you have to sort out in your own mind. You are making many false connections in your brain.
It leads to artists being told that their work is derivative or inauthentic based solely on where the artist lives.
I don't follow. Are you trying to say that people outside of Japan who use anime-esque styles would be considered "inauthentic" because they don't fit into the anime category?
What makes Avatar not an anime? Non-Japanese origin? Art style? Seems pretty anime-like to me.
Art-style has little to do with what makes an anime these days because there's a ton of different art- and animation-styles used these days. Same goes for the rest of the world, just look at Disney and compare that to cartoons running on Cartoon Network or whathaveyou. Anime is animation from Japan, similar to how manga is comics from Japan and manwha is comics from Korea. If you think this is xenophobic, blame language evolving by taking terminology from another country and/or just don't use the word. "Cartoons" works fine but you will piss off nerds and assorted idiots, but I don't think that will bother you.
I'm not arguing that it's not an accepted convention. I'm arguing that it's regressive, socially and artistically, to categorize art this way. It leads to artists being told that their work is derivative or inauthentic based solely on where the artist lives.
Oops, didn't mean to throw a landmine into the thread by saying Avatar isn't anime.
And actually, I do agree that the term "anime" becomes fairly meaningless when you look at it carefully. But there's a social construct of what we consider to be "anime," at the very least for purposes of things like conventions and merchandising. I'll bet Dragonmaster Lou would have something interesting to say here, since he restricts Anime Boston panels to anime-related topics only. He did accept my panel on some live-action Japanese films (I'd referenced anime in the description, and it was a fair tie-in). (Does Vanilla poke Lou when I use his name here, or if I do this: @Dragonmaster Lou , or something else?)
Also, about being gaijin in Japan: A friend of mine who lived in Japan for several years tells me that when visiting as a tourist, one is generally experiencing "Japanland" (ie, Disneyland), not Japan itself. This comes from the combination of cultural pride in being good hosts to visiting tourists, and xenophobia towards those who attempt to actually become part of the culture (moving into the neighborhood, for example). Another friend who lived in Japan tells me it took several years of living there before the people in the neighborhood shops would speak Japanese with her, instead of reverting to English whenever she began a conversation in Japanese; this is very different from my experience as a tourist, when everyone very kindly tolerated my barely-functional Japanese, and responded with hand gestures, speaking slowly, etc, only switching over to English if I specifically asked if they spoke English.
Gaijin is not very perjorative or hostile, but it is quite othering. It is difficult coming from a country where culture and racial identity are more indepedent to live in Japan where no matter how good I got at Japanese language and customs, my race would make me "an outsider." You can become American, but you can not easily become Japanese. However, I really liked living in Japan, and most people I knew addressed me by name. I have been referred to as a gaijin many times, but only so far as people make conversation. "Oh, cool, your friend is a foreigner." "Not many foreigners can eat natto!" That sort of thing. Even if Japan has its racist points, everyone was always nice to me, and I have many good friends there.
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It's not a genre, that's for sure, or if it is, it's a genre that includes nearly all other genres as sub-genres.
I can't tell if we're going to kill each other or be best buds when we meet at CTcon.
The problem Greg states is totally true. Art is often defined by the time period and cultural context through which it was created. The anime fans have this problem, though, of denying the quality of everything that does not come from Japan. I love Avatar and Scott Pilgrim more than many anime and manga, but many people look down on it because of prejudice.
These are generally the same people that don't realize that Japanese culture is intensely xenophobic and that otaku are generally regarded with distaste. In other words, mainstream Japanese people can't stand them, which is sort of ironic in a funny way.
You can be an animation fan and into Japanese culture and have a perfectly nice time living in Japan. You just can't be crazy and ignorant.
EDIT: Goddamn why are there so many ninja's today? I was talking about amefuto.
And while Merlot and Pinot Noir are types of wines, Champaign is from the Champaign region, other wise it's just sparkling white wine. They are nearly the same exact things too.
All Champaign is sparkling white wine, not all sparkling white wine is Champaign. All Bourbon is whiskey but not all whiskey is Bourbon. All Anime is animation but not all animation is Anime.
It's something we do and it's a bit weird but it's done else where as well.
The food examples are similar to anime, but not quite the same - for examples like that and certain place-specific types of cheese, the varieties are all expected to have very similar taste and preparation styles, which would be somewhat analogous to all anime being expected to have the same art style.
Gomi's analogy to la bandes dessinées is perhaps the better one, because anime styles tend to be similar and mainly influenced by each other rather than outside groups. Another accurate analogy, I think, would be to Bollywood and early Hong Kong action cinema - the works have a lot of common features and tropes that distinguish themselves from films not made in the region.
Restricting anime to mean "works of animation produced in Japan" is, I think, a significantly more useful definition than "things that look like anime" due to anime's signficant interal variation in art style.
Because that doesn't actually happen.
And actually, I do agree that the term "anime" becomes fairly meaningless when you look at it carefully. But there's a social construct of what we consider to be "anime," at the very least for purposes of things like conventions and merchandising. I'll bet Dragonmaster Lou would have something interesting to say here, since he restricts Anime Boston panels to anime-related topics only. He did accept my panel on some live-action Japanese films (I'd referenced anime in the description, and it was a fair tie-in). (Does Vanilla poke Lou when I use his name here, or if I do this: @Dragonmaster Lou , or something else?)
Also, about being gaijin in Japan: A friend of mine who lived in Japan for several years tells me that when visiting as a tourist, one is generally experiencing "Japanland" (ie, Disneyland), not Japan itself. This comes from the combination of cultural pride in being good hosts to visiting tourists, and xenophobia towards those who attempt to actually become part of the culture (moving into the neighborhood, for example). Another friend who lived in Japan tells me it took several years of living there before the people in the neighborhood shops would speak Japanese with her, instead of reverting to English whenever she began a conversation in Japanese; this is very different from my experience as a tourist, when everyone very kindly tolerated my barely-functional Japanese, and responded with hand gestures, speaking slowly, etc, only switching over to English if I specifically asked if they spoke English.