/r/spacedicks is not worse than the Holocaust (there's a sentence I never thought I would have to say). /r/spacedicks knows that it is awful, it is aware of its inhumanity, it's social context is only itself and therefore I have no reason to find it awful.
It's kind of the reason I like 4chan more than the culture of reddit's major boards. Reddit is mostly sincere with it's messed up shit; 4chan is an order of magnitude more twisted, but is equally more self-aware and doesn't try to dress itself up as a chill, socially progressive place.
I know it exists, I haven't been there, I don't know the specifics, I know I won't like it and it is horrible. That's how I avoid things on the internet.
In the context of the discussion, which seems to be a comparison of traumatic things for young adolescents and teens to be exposed to, I repeat that /r/spacedicks is worse than the holocaust as a concept. Piles of nondescript bodies in mass graves is pretty fucking horrific, but it's got nothing on the daily flood of horrifying shit that passes through that subreddit. /r/spacedicks is DEFINITELY the more traumatizing of the two due to a much more visceral, up front, inescapable, instinctual, reflexive, TREMENDOUS impact.
I learned about the holocaust in my junior year of high school. It never made me almost pass out or instantly vomit. For some reason my daughter was taught at 13 which was 4 years ahead of when I was taught. Her school spent 6 MONTHS on the holocaust and incorporated it into not only Social Studies, but Literature as well. Two periods a day of the holocaust for most of the school year, plus hours of reading each night. It's pretty horrifying. She was shocked. /r/spacedicks is much more shocking, much more immediate, and much more likely to fucking sear terrible images into your brain.
But yes, on a scale of actual, real world damage, of course the holocaust is worse than just about damn near everything.
It's kind of the reason I like 4chan more than the culture of reddit's major boards. Reddit is mostly sincere with it's messed up shit; 4chan is an order of magnitude more twisted, but is equally more self-aware and doesn't try to dress itself up as a chill, socially progressive place.
In the context of the discussion, which seems to be a comparison of traumatic things for young adolescents and teens to be exposed to, I repeat that /r/spacedicks is worse than the holocaust as a concept. Piles of nondescript bodies in mass graves is pretty fucking horrific, but it's got nothing on the daily flood of horrifying shit that passes through that subreddit. /r/spacedicks is DEFINITELY the more traumatizing of the two due to a much more visceral, up front, inescapable, instinctual, reflexive, TREMENDOUS impact.
I'm not convinced.
Besides, even if that were indeed the case, it's only indicative of a problem with our perception that we need to work on resolving. We ought to be millions of times more horrified by the holocaust than anything like /r/spacedicks, but it's clear enough that we are not.
Dude, my dad taught me about the Holocaust when I was 7 (ish, I'm not sure), and the stuff he showed me was bad such that when they tought us it in middle school I thought "You're not going to talk about the really bad stuff?" I never had too much trouble with it. Really, I find spending 6 months on the holocaust awful not because of what they are teaching, but what they aren't. It's simply excessive to several orders of magnitude. So clearly I'm not one to argue about what you should do with your daughter, but honestly, I find the idea that someone could be a highschool senior without knowing about the attrocities commited at Auschwitz is far more frightening to me than anything on /r/spacedicks.
None of his points make /r/spacedicks worse "as a concept". Worse as an experience as compared to finding out about the Holocaust? Yes, but not as a concept.
If you actually put some real effort into visualizing the Holocaust, it would be a lot worse than "nondescript bodies in mass graves". If you were really trying, each one of those bodies would have a personality, and an actual human life which goes from normality to a state of constant fear, to knowledge of your own inevitable death. You wouldn't just imagine that once, either; you'd imagine it millions of times, and it would be subtly different every time. The Holocaust as a concept still involves the life experience of the people that had to live through it (or died in it), and it's clear enough that /r/spacedicks has nothing on that. Sure, we might not really be able to put ourselves in the shoes of those people, the fact that we as humans can't really visualize the fullness of it makes it no less horrific.
EDIT: On reflection, I'm probably not using the term "concept" appropriately. However, muppet is using a double standard in this regard, since in that case the comparison would have to be against /r/spacedicks as a concept, not /r/spacedicks itself.
It just got kind of dark in here. Sorry about that. Anyway, I stand by my point that while you should try to avoid as many traumatic moments for your teen as you can, it will probably happen accidentally at some point and you have to deal with their fears and upset after the fact. That said, cartoon horses making out with each other is a pretty harmless thing by comparison to some of the world's evils. Not that I care much for clop fanfiction (I avoid it) but I don't see how it is worse than any other anime rule 34, and compared to learning about the atom bomb and the holocaust, my discovery of the existence of slashfic (I was a Gundam Wing fan, it was inevitable) as a teenager was a pretty tame moment on the scale of things that scarred me for life.
Also, kids can learn from their parents mistakes. It's like, if you find a scary site, you know not to go there again and can pass that life advice on to the kid. I find that if people tell me in plain terms what these horrid websites are, I can avoid them. I know what I can and cannot handle, and I was the same as a young adult. Rym has warned me of stuff before, because he knows me and he knows what I will find disturbing. (Sorry for posting twice, by the way.)
Also, kids can learn from their parents mistakes. It's like, if you find a scary site, you know not to go there again and can pass that life advice on to the kid. I find that if people tell me in plain terms what these horrid websites are, I can avoid them. I know what I can and cannot handle, and I was the same as a young adult. Rym has warned me of stuff before, because he knows me and he knows what I will find disturbing.
Yeah, giving an actual description (without much detail) should be enough reason for them to avoid it. Moreover, if you do happen come across something of that nature, it probably helps to have known that that kind of thing existed rather than having it come entirely out of the blue.
Going back to muppet's original point:
I think I was pretty rational (if not very articulate) already. I understand that people can comparmentalize what is adult and what is not, and if they are turned on by children's media, they can keep that private or at least keep it in appropriate circles not involving minors.
What I question is whether things like this have an erosive effect on where "the line" is. I think they do, as a natural part of their existence.
You're mistaken in even thinking that there was a sensible notion of "the line" in the first place. There is no such "line" between children and adults, and nor is there one in the spectrum from the MLP cartoon to MLP fanfiction to MLP slash fiction to pictures of ponies kissing to pony sex to /r/spaceclop. Indeed, the spectrum itself isn't even one-dimensional; stuff like /r/spaceclop takes a turn in a rather different direction.
Yes, I agree. There is no line, just a sliding scale of more mature themes. Also, just because something has had fan-fiction written about it, that does not harm the canonical works, nor does it have to be intertwined with the image of said works. Plus, everyone has their own line, there is no universal line for age appropriate content. As a kid, I was always a lot more scared and disturbed by violent things in my media than by references to sex, and the same holds true even today. I am sure that there exists an 8 year old who could watch a horror film and barely bat an eye (Rym was raised on Steven King books, for example) and I would be freaked out by said film even today. I have my own set of things I can deal with and it changes as I get life experience. I am sure that kids have the same personal line, and it is up to you and them to figure out what they can and cannot handle, and what they want to see and don't want to see.
This is where I shake my head disgustedly at yet another moral relatavist argument and bow out. :-)
Not gonna argue semantics over "as a concept" either.
Greg, my education on the holocaust was not sterilized and neither was my daughter's. Nobody is trying to downplay the holocaust. I still maintain that the daily, contemporary depravity parade on spacedicks is much more immediately impactful. Rationality regarding relative volumes of human suffering has very little to do with how humans instinctually process images.
This is where I shake my head disgustedly at yet another moral relatavist argument and bow out. :-)
I think you're misusing the term "moral relativist". I am not a moral relativist.
Greg, my education on the holocaust was not sterilized and neither was my daughter's. Nobody is trying to downplay the holocaust. I still maintain that the daily, contemporary depravity parade on spacedicks is much more immediately impactful. Rationality regarding relative volumes of human suffering has very little to do with how humans instinctually process images.
I agree; it's a problem we need to work on as a species.
Where do you draw the line in this fandom? I think it lies between the Lyra fuck plushie and this. (I don't think they seriously did that, but if she did...well...)
Muppet, your gross generalizations and your poor evidence consisting mostly of localized anecdotes give you a very weak argument and are making you look incredibly foolish. Rym has done an excellent job explaining and refuting your points. Many people in this forum, myself included, are proof to the contrary of your assertion of failures to launch obsessed with staying children forever. I watched the show and liked it, and the creativity that sprung up around it on the internet was remarkable. Granted, some of it is tasteless and some people get WAY too into thier interests. This could be said about any interest, even stereotypically 'adult' ones like keeping a healthy lawn or macrame or having pets or children. We've all met people who talk way too much about their 'thing', but the quality of said thing is not reflected in this. Are children stupid and imature because their parents won't stop talking about them? How about football? Fans have actually physically fought over the game. Why not mock them too? Talk about immature behavior.
What I mean by that is that I conceded a lot of points in this thread, asked a lot of questions, and then the discussion got off on a tangent about moral relativism and what's appropriate for kids.
So sure, some of my early posts might have been a little inflammatory, but I framed most of it as "here's how I see things represented from the outside, what's it really like?" So... sorry if you are predisposed to be offended by addressing stereotypes..?
What I mean by that is that I conceded a lot of points in this thread, asked a lot of questions, and then the discussion got off on a tangent about moral relativism and what's appropriate for kids.
I'll say it again - I do not think moral relativism means what you think it means.
Whenever you start arguing the semantics of well established, well umderstood syntactical shorthand like the existence of a "line" between this or that moral concept, pretending that it's meant literally when everyone knows it's a spectrum, and forcing everyone to argue from first principles or surrender, a moral relativism discussion is pretty much inevitable. Been there, done that, got the (oddly proportioned) t-shirt.
Sure, I can see how it is a convenient shorthand in some circumstances, but when you're making an argument that is devoid of substance other than a suggestion that this non-existent line is being eroded, the semantics is all we have to go on.
I still don't see how discussion of the semantics inevitably leads to discussion of moral relativism. Setting that aside, what is your actual point?
Comments
I only had to visit once to find a brag photo of a hollowed out corpse being raped. I'm all done.
Also, I'd advise those of a less hardened disposition to avoid going there, it's pretty messed up.
I learned about the holocaust in my junior year of high school. It never made me almost pass out or instantly vomit. For some reason my daughter was taught at 13 which was 4 years ahead of when I was taught. Her school spent 6 MONTHS on the holocaust and incorporated it into not only Social Studies, but Literature as well. Two periods a day of the holocaust for most of the school year, plus hours of reading each night. It's pretty horrifying. She was shocked. /r/spacedicks is much more shocking, much more immediate, and much more likely to fucking sear terrible images into your brain.
But yes, on a scale of actual, real world damage, of course the holocaust is worse than just about damn near everything.
Besides, even if that were indeed the case, it's only indicative of a problem with our perception that we need to work on resolving. We ought to be millions of times more horrified by the holocaust than anything like /r/spacedicks, but it's clear enough that we are not.
EDIT: @lackofcheese: I am.
If you actually put some real effort into visualizing the Holocaust, it would be a lot worse than "nondescript bodies in mass graves". If you were really trying, each one of those bodies would have a personality, and an actual human life which goes from normality to a state of constant fear, to knowledge of your own inevitable death. You wouldn't just imagine that once, either; you'd imagine it millions of times, and it would be subtly different every time. The Holocaust as a concept still involves the life experience of the people that had to live through it (or died in it), and it's clear enough that /r/spacedicks has nothing on that. Sure, we might not really be able to put ourselves in the shoes of those people, the fact that we as humans can't really visualize the fullness of it makes it no less horrific.
EDIT: On reflection, I'm probably not using the term "concept" appropriately. However, muppet is using a double standard in this regard, since in that case the comparison would have to be against /r/spacedicks as a concept, not /r/spacedicks itself.
Anyway, I stand by my point that while you should try to avoid as many traumatic moments for your teen as you can, it will probably happen accidentally at some point and you have to deal with their fears and upset after the fact. That said, cartoon horses making out with each other is a pretty harmless thing by comparison to some of the world's evils. Not that I care much for clop fanfiction (I avoid it) but I don't see how it is worse than any other anime rule 34, and compared to learning about the atom bomb and the holocaust, my discovery of the existence of slashfic (I was a Gundam Wing fan, it was inevitable) as a teenager was a pretty tame moment on the scale of things that scarred me for life.
(Sorry for posting twice, by the way.)
Going back to muppet's original point:You're mistaken in even thinking that there was a sensible notion of "the line" in the first place. There is no such "line" between children and adults, and nor is there one in the spectrum from the MLP cartoon to MLP fanfiction to MLP slash fiction to pictures of ponies kissing to pony sex to /r/spaceclop. Indeed, the spectrum itself isn't even one-dimensional; stuff like /r/spaceclop takes a turn in a rather different direction.
Also, just because something has had fan-fiction written about it, that does not harm the canonical works, nor does it have to be intertwined with the image of said works. Plus, everyone has their own line, there is no universal line for age appropriate content. As a kid, I was always a lot more scared and disturbed by violent things in my media than by references to sex, and the same holds true even today. I am sure that there exists an 8 year old who could watch a horror film and barely bat an eye (Rym was raised on Steven King books, for example) and I would be freaked out by said film even today. I have my own set of things I can deal with and it changes as I get life experience. I am sure that kids have the same personal line, and it is up to you and them to figure out what they can and cannot handle, and what they want to see and don't want to see.
Not gonna argue semantics over "as a concept" either.
Greg, my education on the holocaust was not sterilized and neither was my daughter's. Nobody is trying to downplay the holocaust. I still maintain that the daily, contemporary depravity parade on spacedicks is much more immediately impactful. Rationality regarding relative volumes of human suffering has very little to do with how humans instinctually process images.
Also, new episode of Friendship is Witchcraft:
I watched the show and liked it, and the creativity that sprung up around it on the internet was remarkable.
Granted, some of it is tasteless and some people get WAY too into thier interests. This could be said about any interest, even stereotypically 'adult' ones like keeping a healthy lawn or macrame or having pets or children. We've all met people who talk way too much about their 'thing', but the quality of said thing is not reflected in this. Are children stupid and imature because their parents won't stop talking about them? How about football? Fans have actually physically fought over the game. Why not mock them too? Talk about immature behavior.
... new evening plans.
So sure, some of my early posts might have been a little inflammatory, but I framed most of it as "here's how I see things represented from the outside, what's it really like?" So... sorry if you are predisposed to be offended by addressing stereotypes..?
Whenever you start arguing the semantics of well established, well umderstood syntactical shorthand like the existence of a "line" between this or that moral concept, pretending that it's meant literally when everyone knows it's a spectrum, and forcing everyone to argue from first principles or surrender, a moral relativism discussion is pretty much inevitable. Been there, done that, got the (oddly proportioned) t-shirt.
I still don't see how discussion of the semantics inevitably leads to discussion of moral relativism. Setting that aside, what is your actual point?