I too will jump on the bandwagon of not hating HalfmoonHex. Unpopular opinion, I don't think it's right that people used what's going on in here to disagree with you in other places. I typed it up but deleted it as magfest tickets were maybe happening.
But I basically said something akin to a nazi saying he liked chocolate. Turning around and saying something like, "because of your nazism I disagree with your liking chocolate, chocolate is shit" is BS, and to my mind there was a bit of that going on here.
We're not going to forever tar and feather you for disagreeing, there's no major repercussions for being wrong, except a bit of pride, if you attach your pride to that sort of thing. Just chill.
I mean, the only things that really stick are when people say something that's just silly like when people suggest filling suitcases and traincars with blood or just about everything in the "Why Rym and Scott are Gay" thread.
I mean, the only things that really stick are when people say something that's just silly like when people suggest filling suitcases and traincars with blood or just about everything in the "Why Rym and Scott are Gay" thread.
It's not all good on the anti-gg side either. For example, it's disappointing that anti-gg sentiment too often is found hand-in-hand with fat-shaming, virgin-shaming, thinly-veiled mocking of traits generally associated with being neuro-atypical, or general disdain for people who fall short of good personal hygiene or make certain unfortunate fashion decisions when it comes to headgear. To me those things aren't inextricably linked to gg ideas, and resorting to making fun of that stuff detracts from the (righteous and correct!) anti-gg position, no matter how much *more* evil gg is.
I do agree that there shouldn't be any fat-shaming, virgin-shaming, or mocking of neuro atypical peoples. those are bad.
As for hats, and especially hygiene, I actually think we need more shaming. Ok, not so seriously about the hats, but the hygiene definitely. There was this thread on boardgame reddit today, but I didn't bother replying since there were too many comments already.
The problem exists because people are too afraid to call people out on their bad hygiene. If someone has bad breath, BO, etc. people are afraid to tell them. They just stay away without saying anything. The people with the problem don't realize it. It's like if you had a virus, but it didn't make you cough or sneeze. You are very ill, but have no symptom you can detect on your own.
If someone be stanky, we need to let them know so they can do something about it. If they don't change their ways, we need to kick it up a notch and make it clear that it is not acceptable, and they are not welcome around these parts unless they change their ways.
Well it's a case where an Influencer/Entertainer wasn't being honest that they were financially linked to a product they were endorsing.
Yes, at best they had a conflict of interests and didn't properly disclose their ownership of the site, and and worst might have just straight up scammed people. But for one thing, it's not games journalism in the slightest. And just because someone relating to games does something sketchy doesn't mean "therefore gamergate". Yes, sometimes fucked up things do happen in relation to games but making it relate to gamergate only takes away credibility from what you have to say about it by bringing in all the misogynist baggage and lies that come with it.
As for hats, and especially hygiene, I actually think we need more shaming. Ok, not so seriously about the hats, but the hygiene definitely. There was this thread on boardgame reddit today, but I didn't bother replying since there were too many comments already.
The problem exists because people are too afraid to call people out on their bad hygiene. If someone has bad breath, BO, etc. people are afraid to tell them. They just stay away without saying anything. The people with the problem don't realize it. It's like if you had a virus, but it didn't make you cough or sneeze. You are very ill, but have no symptom you can detect on your own.
If someone be stanky, we need to let them know so they can do something about it. If they don't change their ways, we need to kick it up a notch and make it clear that it is not acceptable, and they are not welcome around these parts unless they change their ways.
Hmm, yeah, I guess I agree that in general we don't speak up enough about hygiene stuff. But I also believe there's a line somewhere between giving someone up-front feedback that something they're doing (or not doing) is causing the people around them a lot of discomfort, versus saying things that are meant to mock or evoke shame or a diminished sense of self-worth.
Maybe you'll say something like "those people *should* feel ashamed", and you might even be right. But I question whether it's our job as a community to *make* them feel ashamed directly, or whether there's a way we can change their viewpoint to the ultimate effect of them realizing how other people perceive them and *automatically* feeling ashamed.
The difference might be subtle, but to me it's important. When done without care, it's easy to slip from justifiably "calling something out" to intentionally harming someone's self-esteem, especially when group dynamics are involved.
Obviously if you can find a way to let them know about the problem without hurting them, that's good. You aren't going to suddenly yell out very loud in a crowded place "YO DUDE, YOU GOT MAD BO!!!" But sometimes there's no way to let them know without causing at least a little bit of harm to them. I see it as justifiable since think of all the harm you are preventing to other people's nostrils. It's a net benefit for society.
Like if someone is running for the subway. If you don't hold the door for them, they'll miss it and lose 5 minutes of their life waiting for the next train. But if you do hold the door, the train will leave 5 seconds later. If there are just 200 people on the train that comes out to over 15 minutes of total time lost. Quite often when you want to avoid minimally harming one person you are permitting much greater harm to all.
That also doesn't apply to sexism/racism/harassment. If someone engages in those behaviors at a con, they should immediately be confronted, and likely ejected from whatever game they're in.
Obviously if you can find a way to let them know about the problem without hurting them, that's good. You aren't going to suddenly yell out very loud in a crowded place "YO DUDE, YOU GOT MAD BO!!!" But sometimes there's no way to let them know without causing at least a little bit of harm to them. I see it as justifiable since think of all the harm you are preventing to other people's nostrils. It's a net benefit for society.
Like if someone is running for the subway. If you don't hold the door for them, they'll miss it and lose 5 minutes of their life waiting for the next train. But if you do hold the door, the train will leave 5 seconds later. If there are just 200 people on the train that comes out to over 15 minutes of total time lost. Quite often when you want to avoid minimally harming one person you are permitting much greater harm to all.
I'm all about the hedonic calculus, but you're on a slippery slope.
The subway example is extra misleading because you'd have to go out of your way to actively hold the door for that one person, whereas passively letting it close would result in the desired outcome. Say you're in an elevator with 10 people already aboard and you just happen to the the one standing in front of the control panel. You see one more person down the hall, heading for the elevator with plenty of time. If the default outcome is that the person makes it to the elevator, would you actively push the door-close button to save 30 seconds for each of the 10 people aboard?
f the default outcome is that the person makes it to the elevator, would you actively push the door-close button to save 30 seconds for each of the 10 people aboard?
If it's going to take that stranger 30 full seconds to enter the elevator, I'll shoot him if I have to.
Look, we don't hate you HalfmoonHex, we just don't understand why you continue to have this defense for the indefensible. There's totally a viable way to complain and laugh at Games Journalism without siding with GamerGate. It's just more baffling in the sense that you've acknowledged how awful they are but still want to legitimize their existence like an abused spouse. (And Gamergate is super quick to cannibalize their supporters for being detractors or not following the true vision) The fact you still talk here shows you have some type of moral fiber/fortitude to try and understand what happened.
Anita Sarkeesian these days is an after-thought. Jonathan McIntoish is still frustratingly annoying. Zoe Quinn has moved on with her life and doesn't have to deal with court battles anymore. Gawker did lose heavily against Hulk Hogan, but stopped caring and their form of bankruptcy just means restructuring. Game companies are still successful. Game publishers and developers still sometimes screw over consumers.
Unless you actually believe in their modus operandi of hatred towards feminism, companies need to be defended from critics, and conspiracies of journalists taunting gamers for money...you should not defend them at all.
f the default outcome is that the person makes it to the elevator, would you actively push the door-close button to save 30 seconds for each of the 10 people aboard?
If it's going to take that stranger 30 full seconds to enter the elevator, I'll shoot him if I have to.
It's a reeaaalllly long hallway, like to the space elevator. And the people-mover to the elevator is fast, but not fast enough.
It's not all good on the anti-gg side either. For example, it's disappointing that anti-gg sentiment too often is found hand-in-hand with fat-shaming, virgin-shaming, thinly-veiled mocking of traits generally associated with being neuro-atypical, or general disdain for people who fall short of good personal hygiene or make certain unfortunate fashion decisions when it comes to headgear. To me those things aren't inextricably linked to gg ideas, and resorting to making fun of that stuff detracts from the (righteous and correct!) anti-gg position, no matter how much *more* evil gg is.
I do agree that there shouldn't be any fat-shaming, virgin-shaming, or mocking of neuro atypical peoples. those are bad.
As for hats, and especially hygiene, I actually think we need more shaming. Ok, not so seriously about the hats, but the hygiene definitely. There was this thread on boardgame reddit today, but I didn't bother replying since there were too many comments already.
The problem exists because people are too afraid to call people out on their bad hygiene. If someone has bad breath, BO, etc. people are afraid to tell them. They just stay away without saying anything. The people with the problem don't realize it. It's like if you had a virus, but it didn't make you cough or sneeze. You are very ill, but have no symptom you can detect on your own.
If someone be stanky, we need to let them know so they can do something about it. If they don't change their ways, we need to kick it up a notch and make it clear that it is not acceptable, and they are not welcome around these parts unless they change their ways.
My Ma actually did this with one of her boyfriends when she was younger. Nice guy but stank to high buggery. Got him a wash kit as a present and he cleaned up his act didn't even know that he had an issue till she mentioned it.
Aslo @Churba how could we talk about heroes without mentioning this gem?
If someone is saying they won't vote for trump because:
"There are plenty of other reasons. Wall's not going to happen, even then it won't stop guest workers who came through the legal way or cure the Child Refugee crisis in South America. I'm convinced he supports the TPP and is lying about it. And many more that I can't think of."
The only thing I fixate on is "more that I can't think of"?!?!??!?
You can't think of more reasons not to support trump? What the fuck? That you think you might even be able to list the reasons is weird. That you can only list three before running out of ideas? My mind is blown.
What happened, Halfoon? I was actually willing to discuss this with you. Unfortunately all that has happened thus far was:
1) Halfmoon states that GG isn't all bad, but does not fully articulate what he specifically supports of the large umbrella of topics that fell under the GG agenda.
2) Others respond that, no, in fact GG is a miasma of sexism, harassment, personal attacks based on lies, and that game journalism isn't really a thing.
3) Halfmoon then accuses the forum of being unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints and ganging up on him.
4) Rym responds that he is aware of GG's recent movement to "infiltrate" forums/social media.
5) Halfmoon then throws a bunch of incomprehensible nonsense at the forum (I don't mean to be rude; I genuinely cannot understand what Halfmoon was trying to communicate) and sates that we all "hate" him.
In the end, Halfmoon neither communicated what aspect of the GG movement he supported nor provided any reason for others to support said aspects.
Halfmoon, if you are still lurking, please make your point or kindly shut up.
Comments
By the time I get around to catching up, the commercials for the next season are dudes throwing hadouken fireballs. Yeah, I'm out.
But I basically said something akin to a nazi saying he liked chocolate. Turning around and saying something like, "because of your nazism I disagree with your liking chocolate, chocolate is shit" is BS, and to my mind there was a bit of that going on here.
As for hats, and especially hygiene, I actually think we need more shaming. Ok, not so seriously about the hats, but the hygiene definitely. There was this thread on boardgame reddit today, but I didn't bother replying since there were too many comments already.
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/4wy7m8/why_is_hygiene_such_a_common_problem/
The problem exists because people are too afraid to call people out on their bad hygiene. If someone has bad breath, BO, etc. people are afraid to tell them. They just stay away without saying anything. The people with the problem don't realize it. It's like if you had a virus, but it didn't make you cough or sneeze. You are very ill, but have no symptom you can detect on your own.
If someone be stanky, we need to let them know so they can do something about it. If they don't change their ways, we need to kick it up a notch and make it clear that it is not acceptable, and they are not welcome around these parts unless they change their ways.
Maybe you'll say something like "those people *should* feel ashamed", and you might even be right. But I question whether it's our job as a community to *make* them feel ashamed directly, or whether there's a way we can change their viewpoint to the ultimate effect of them realizing how other people perceive them and *automatically* feeling ashamed.
The difference might be subtle, but to me it's important. When done without care, it's easy to slip from justifiably "calling something out" to intentionally harming someone's self-esteem, especially when group dynamics are involved.
Like if someone is running for the subway. If you don't hold the door for them, they'll miss it and lose 5 minutes of their life waiting for the next train. But if you do hold the door, the train will leave 5 seconds later. If there are just 200 people on the train that comes out to over 15 minutes of total time lost. Quite often when you want to avoid minimally harming one person you are permitting much greater harm to all.
The subway example is extra misleading because you'd have to go out of your way to actively hold the door for that one person, whereas passively letting it close would result in the desired outcome. Say you're in an elevator with 10 people already aboard and you just happen to the the one standing in front of the control panel. You see one more person down the hall, heading for the elevator with plenty of time. If the default outcome is that the person makes it to the elevator, would you actively push the door-close button to save 30 seconds for each of the 10 people aboard?
Anita Sarkeesian these days is an after-thought. Jonathan McIntoish is still frustratingly annoying. Zoe Quinn has moved on with her life and doesn't have to deal with court battles anymore. Gawker did lose heavily against Hulk Hogan, but stopped caring and their form of bankruptcy just means restructuring. Game companies are still successful. Game publishers and developers still sometimes screw over consumers.
Unless you actually believe in their modus operandi of hatred towards feminism, companies need to be defended from critics, and conspiracies of journalists taunting gamers for money...you should not defend them at all.
Aslo @Churba how could we talk about heroes without mentioning this gem?
"There are plenty of other reasons.
Wall's not going to happen, even then it won't stop guest workers who came through the legal way or cure the Child Refugee crisis in South America.
I'm convinced he supports the TPP and is lying about it.
And many more that I can't think of."
The only thing I fixate on is "more that I can't think of"?!?!??!?
You can't think of more reasons not to support trump? What the fuck? That you think you might even be able to list the reasons is weird. That you can only list three before running out of ideas? My mind is blown.
Halfmoon, I will hate you if you need me to. It is my duty, as the least fun person here.
1) Halfmoon states that GG isn't all bad, but does not fully articulate what he specifically supports of the large umbrella of topics that fell under the GG agenda.
2) Others respond that, no, in fact GG is a miasma of sexism, harassment, personal attacks based on lies, and that game journalism isn't really a thing.
3) Halfmoon then accuses the forum of being unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints and ganging up on him.
4) Rym responds that he is aware of GG's recent movement to "infiltrate" forums/social media.
5) Halfmoon then throws a bunch of incomprehensible nonsense at the forum (I don't mean to be rude; I genuinely cannot understand what Halfmoon was trying to communicate) and sates that we all "hate" him.
In the end, Halfmoon neither communicated what aspect of the GG movement he supported nor provided any reason for others to support said aspects.
Halfmoon, if you are still lurking, please make your point or kindly shut up.
"We're all Dads now."