Do you hear that, Pete? Bears. Now you're putting the whole forums in jeopardy.
Well, you've got to learn how to wrestle a bear some time.
I'm more of a fan of wrestling with alligators, they are in abundance where I live, one of the advantages of living literally across the street from the everglades.
Speaking of bears and dating, has anyone heard about Bear Nation? It is a documentary about "bears" in the gay community and Kevin Smith is the Executive Producer. I really want to see it, but I am not sure where to see it. Hopefully it will come to Logo or Netflix.
Speaking of bears and dating, has anyone heard aboutBear Nation?
I've had that on my list since I heard an interview with the director on The Sound of Young America (host Jesse Thorn said "It made me want to give the whole world a hug"), but so far I haven't found a way to see it either.
It sounds pretty shitty, but depending on the circumstances, I think it can be totally justified. Obviously, we all get old and fall apart eventually. But if you expect a person to be monogamous, you owe it to them to do what you can to remain attractive to them. If partner A is really letting themselves go, I think it's incumbent on partner B say something (as gently as possible) and do what they can to help. But if partner A isn't willing to do what it takes (within reason, of course), partner B is certainly justified in moving on.
It sounds pretty shitty, but depending on the circumstances, I think it can be totally justified. Obviously, we all get old and fall apart eventually. But if you expect a person to be monogamous, you owe it to them to do what you can to remain attractive to them. If partner A is really letting themselves go, I think it's incumbent on partner B say something (as gently as possible) and do what they can to help. But if partner A isn't willing to do what it takes (within reason, of course), partner B is certainly justified in moving on.
Not only this, but significant weight gain can be a symptom of behavioral, or emotional changes which definitely are valid reasons for ending a relationship.
You listen to the Savage Love podcast? You should. The other day there was a call from a woman who had put on a little weight - a little, not an obese ton - and her husband pretended he was taking a cute sexy picture of her, then called her over and showed her in exacting detail all the areas where she was putting on weight and he thought she looked bad.
It was bad. The baffled hurt in her voice made me want to cry tears made of fists.
It was bad. The baffled hurt in her voice made me want to cry tears made of fists.
It's really hard to believe that someone you love is just doing something bad. People tend to blame themselves first, even when it's not their fault, because you idealize the person you're in love with. It's really fucked up to use that level of trust to brutally hurt someone. It's one thing to bring up an issue in a way that shows you are willing to help fix the problem and work with your partner. It's another entirely to use something like that as emotional ammunition.
This is the single largest problem I have seen in most bad relationships. I can't even remember the number of people I have had to counsel that the person they love is the problem and isn't going to change. Parents, siblings, partners... it can come from anywhere. It's damn hard to deal with. I've been in that position myself, and I stayed there for way longer than I should have because I was emotionally blinded and attached. It makes you want to bad things to the people who cause that kind of pain. Fuck those guys.
It sounds pretty shitty, but depending on the circumstances, I think it can be totally justified. Obviously, we all get old and fall apart eventually. But if you expect a person to be monogamous, you owe it to them to do what you can to remain attractive to them. If partner A is really letting themselves go, I think it's incumbent on partner B say something (as gently as possible) and do what they can to help. But if partner A isn't willing to do what it takes (within reason, of course), partner B is certainly justified in moving on.
While I don't disagree with your overall sentiment, I also think that far, far too many people care about weight above and beyond other physical, mental, social, and emotional problems/strengths. If a person gains weight and they instantly become unattractive to their partner, then there may be something wrong with the partner doing the scrutinizing (i.e. they are overly obsessed with weight) or the relationship may have other flaws that are more glaring when visual attractiveness is lessened. For instance, after a women has a baby or a man takes a desk job it may be unrealistic to expect them to maintain the same weight they had before. Obviously, different relationships and the people involved in those relationships will value different aspects more or less based on individual needs; however, if a person puts on weight, but their health and ability to join in shared activities is not diminished, and their partner takes major offense to the weight, then perhaps the person scrutinizing needs help more than the one with newly sprouted chub.
I think it's completely reasonable to expect some fluctuation, and like I said, we all get old and fall apart eventually -- and I'm sure our expectations will tend to change with time. You're right that it's about priorities. To me, physical attractiveness is important in a relationship. It's far from the most important thing, but it's one of the things that has to be there. If I'm no longer attracted to my partner to the point that I don't even want to have sex with her, then how is it even a romantic relationship anymore? People have a right to expect their reasonable needs to be met in a relationship, to move on if their partner is unwilling or unable to meet their needs, and to not be vilified for it. A man who's too interested in video games to give his partner the attention she needs is not much different than a woman who's too interested in ice cream to try to stay in shape for her partner. Or vice-versa, of course -- women have just as much a right to expect their men to take care of themselves, though I think far fewer actually assert that right.
Now, the episode of Savage Love that Balderdash mentioned -- that's way over the line. From what the caller said, her husband was absolutely being abusive. However, I've been listening to and reading Dan Savage for years, and I can't count how many times he's counseled someone on how to deal gently with a partner who's gaining weight, and how okay it is to leave them if they won't do anything about it.
however, if a person puts on weight, but their health and ability to join in shared activities is not diminished, and their partner takes major offense to the weight, then perhaps the person scrutinizing needs help more than the one with newly sprouted chub.
"Major offense" is one thing -- simply no longer being physically attracted to someone is another. But if a person has abandoned any efforts to take care their appearance, and is unwilling to change despite their partner's feelings, I think "major offense" is a reasonable response.
Couldn't you say the same thing about getting old, though? In this culture anybody over the age of 30 seems to be viewed as physically undesirable. Sure, some middle-age rich lady could ditch their spouse to go play cougar with college kids, but I would question them for being shallow and not involved enough with their spouse's personality. I've turned down boys because I didn't find them hot, but, say, if the person who I was in love with got cancer and their hair all fell out, I would be a complete loser if I ditched them because of that. Sure, hotness is important, but there is so much more to a human bond than that.
edit: Isn't it all subjective? I know people's family members harping on them because they are not stick skinny, or because they gained, like, 5 pounds. What if the husband had completely unrealistic standards of beauty? This is why some women hate for their boyfriends to see them without makeup, and feel ashamed. I think a person's physical appearance should be treated a lot like their personality. You can ask them to correct some annoying personal habits, (or ask someone to, for example, shave their mustache), but you aren't going to change who they naturally are. Just like you can't date a hot person and expect for them to adjust their whole personality for you, you can't date someone and make them into your perfect beauty swan.
In this culture anybody over the age of 30 seems to be viewed as physically undesirable.
Yeah, I think there is a huge difference between what TV tells you our society is and what our society actually is. I know plenty of people over 30 who are highly desirable. They have waiting lists! Freaking WAITING LISTS of people wanting to hook up with them!
Pop culture tells you everyone wants pretty, skinny, young people, but the reality is that the majority of people have their own tastes and preferences, and it just takes some time to figure out what they are. What I personally am attracted is a lot different than the "male ideal" generally held up by the media. Maybe you (and others) are putting too much stock in what the media says our culture likes. Sure, there is a segment of the population that likes shallow, pretty, dumb people. That's their thing. I don't think it's as prevalent as the media seems to show, given what the majority of the people I know look like.
There is a gigantic difference between a person's physical attractiveness and "hotness." Someone might not be hot when all their hair falls out from chemo, but that doesn't mean their partner will no longer find them attractive. Physical attraction often grows from an emotional bond, which doesn't go away just because someone's appearance changes a little.
Sure, as some middle-age rich lady could ditch their spouse to go play cougar with college kids, but I would question them for being shallow and not involved enough with their spouse's personality.
For the sake of argument, let's say that when this middle-aged rich lady married her husband, they both ate right and exercised, and they both looked good. After they got married, she continued her effort to look good for her husband, but he started eating nothing but pizza and cheeseburgers and sitting on the couch watching football all day. He's put on 150 pounds over the last 10 years. She still loves him, but she's simply no longer attracted to him. She's repeatedly asked him to do something about it, but he just doesn't seem to care. Actually, he doesn't care -- she's telling him about her needs, and he's telling her that no, he doesn't care about her needs, he cares about pizza and football. Would you really look down on her if she left him for that?
but, say, if the person who I was in love with got cancer and their hair all fell out, I would be a completeloserif I ditched them because of that. Sure, hotness is important, but there is so much more to a human bond than that.
Of course. Of course. But in each of my posts, I've specified that I'm talking about a situation where a partner is unwilling to make a change. Unable is a different situation entirely.
A great deal of misery comes from people treating each other badly out of simple insecurity. There are a lot of young guys out there who actually like chubby girls, and a great deal more who like normal, healthy, round girls, and to one degree or another most of those young guys are deeply insecure about themselves and their own preferences because they think they're supposed to like skinny girls and they're worried about what everyone will think about them when they see they have a chubby girlfriend.
Get over it, guys.
Seriously.
What your buds think is really, really, really not something that should be determining how you treat your partner.
I'm with Funfetus on this one. No longer being attracted to someone physically is a huge problem in many relationships, but thankfully most people aren't dicks about it, and other areas are still strong enough. Personally, I could never be with someone who cared so little about their health that they let themselves get overweight, and not care to try to improve. In the same way, I could never be in a relationship with a smoker. If I had a girlfriend, and she started smoking, I'd probably not stick around. It isn't about the attractiveness of their body or breath, but the mindset behind the accepted unhealthiness that leads to the unattractiveness.
Pop culture tells you everyone wants pretty, skinny, young people, but the reality is that the majority of people have their own tastes and preferences, and it just takes some time to figure out what they are. What I personally am attracted is a lot different than the "male ideal" generally held up by the media. Maybe you (and others) are putting too much stock in what the media says our culture likes. Sure, there is a segment of the population that likes shallow, pretty, dumb people. That's their thing. I don't think it's as prevalent as the media seems to show, given what the majority of the people I know look like.
QFT. Both genders have their own forced ideals of what they should be and who they should be. But while everyone is subjective like Emily said, a large majority of people are going want the hollywood, romanticized image of a person because it is said to be the greatest thing ever. Pop Culture runs deep within us, it's no question.
With the Savage Love weight issue, it was definitely cruel for that person call his partner horrible because she gained weight. But it isn't a weight issue exactly, as you could take anything about a person's personality, dissect it, and slap it in their face, telling them that they are wrong. Like it's some sort of intervention. That's just being a douchebag. Weight for Women (and Men to an extent) is just even a more crucial issue nowadays because we have more fat people now than ever, a new opinion of the perfect woman, an intense amount of science and productivity all about controlling weight...it's a pun, but it's a huge part of public thinking.
In this culture anybody over the age of 30 seems to be viewed as physically undesirable.
Since when? How many times have you heard "30 is the new 20" bandied about? How about cougars? Aging actresses and actors who still look good? Desperate Housewives, House, Grey's Anatomy...these are some of the most popular shows on TV, and they all showcase characters who are at least 30.
In fact, if you were to say society wants anything from people right now, you'd be most correct in saying that it wants people to be vampires. :P
We're at the point where "society" is a confluence of several micro-cultures existing in the same space at the same time. Where one jerk thinks that is wife is ugly because she gained 5 pounds, some other jerk wants his wife to gain 100 pounds.
The only rules that matter any more are 1. figuring out what you want, 2. communicating with your partner, and 3. being receptive to your partner's needs. If something doesn't jive between the two of you, work it out or move on. Everything else (you have to be this tall or weigh this much or want this many kids) is pretty much a tossup. Be what you want to be and find someone who wants that.
Since when? How many times have you heard "30 is the new 20" bandied about? How about cougars? Aging actresses and actors who still look good? Desperate Housewives, House, Grey's Anatomy...these are some of the most popular shows on TV, and they all showcase characters who areat least30.
In fact, if you were to say society wants anything from people right now, you'd be most correct in saying that it wants people to be vampires. :P
True enough. I guess maybe I've been watching too many dramas where Asian women are all booed out because they are 26 and can't get a husband. There are plenty hot middle aged women in American entertainment. Also, don't conflate that with my view. I think there can be elegant and glamorous people of many ages. I just see the stereotype of older people leaving their partner because their partner is also aging, and thus is not attractive.
In this culture anybody over the age of 30 seems to be viewed as physically undesirable.
Since when? How many times have you heard "30 is the new 20" bandied about? How about cougars? Aging actresses and actors who still look good? Desperate Housewives, House, Grey's Anatomy...these are some of the most popular shows on TV, and they all showcase characters who areat least30.
In fact, if you were to say society wants anything from people right now, you'd be most correct in saying that it wants people to be vampires. :P
We're at the point where "society" is a confluence of several micro-cultures existing in the same space at the same time. Where one jerk thinks that is wife is ugly because she gained 5 pounds, some other jerk wants his wife to gain 100 pounds.
The only rules that matter any more are 1. figuring out what you want, 2. communicating with your partner, and 3. being receptive to your partner's needs. If something doesn't jive between the two of you, work it out or move on. Everything else (you have to be this tall or weigh this much or want this many kids) is pretty much a tossup. Be what you want to be and find someone who wants that.
Pete, statements like "30 is the new 20" and shows like the one you listed put incredibly unrealistic expectations on people, particularly women, as they age. Those women are starved, worked out, waxed, tweaked, tightened, plumped, oiled, sucked, squeezed into major foundation garments, and underneath a veritable mask of makeup.
Wanting your partner to gain or lose weight to fit some ideal that is unrealistic for their body type, age, etc. is just setting both oneself and one's partner up for being disappointed.
For anyone in a sexual relationship, physical attractiveness will come into play; however, expecting your size 6 girlfriend to be a size 6 into grandmotherhood is, in most cases, simply unrealistic. There is a difference between someone living a healthy, active lifestyle and maintaining a healthy body and someone staying a "hard body" their entire life. I am not saying that physical attractiveness is unimportant, but I also think that weight gain (as long as it is not extreme) shouldn't be the only factor in a person's physical attractiveness. Making an effort to please your partner is a really great way of showing that you care about them and their desires. On the flip side, attempting to maintain the body of a 20 year old into ones 50's simply isn't possible. My point isn't that a person should make an effort, my point is that having some weight gain be a deal breaker is just as unrealistic as having gray hair, wrinkles, or zits be a deal breaker.
Pete, statements like "30 is the new 20" and shows like the one you listed put incredibly unrealistic expectations on people, particularly women, as they age. Those women are starved, worked out, waxed, tweaked, tightened, plumped, oiled, sucked, squeezed into major foundation garments, and underneath a veritable mask of makeup.
I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Of course TV actresses are worked to an unrealistic degree. All actors and actresses have unrealistic appearances. Don't forget about airbrushing.
If you want a better example, look at Christina Hendricks. She's 35 and a size 14, and is widely considered one of the sexiest women out there today. Hollywood designers won't make dresses for her because they think she's too big, but it's clear that the opinions of some Hollywood fashion folks have little bearing as to how the majority of people see her attractiveness.
The whole point about "30 is the new 20" and the various shows is that age is no longer the universal societal issue that it once was. There is a growing shift in consciousness towards a more realistic view of attractiveness.
Yes, people who expect you to stay the same size forever are unrealistic, but they can certainly find someone who is the size they want without much trouble. It's up to the people involved in a relationship to communicate their needs and wants to each other, and try to work out the differences where things come into conflict. Weight gain can be one of those things, but so can a host of other factors.
Kate! We are all agreeing with you that a little weight gain or loss in the course of a reasonable lifestyle is, on its own, a shitty reason to end a relationship! It's cool! We get it, and we have agreed. Reasonable body changes that are to be expected with age are... well, expected. No one here is saying you need to go to extreme lengths to look 20 years younger than you are. I don't know what the hell else we can say. The point is that you need to make reasonable attempts to stay healthy, not that you need to go crazy with the face lifts and botox.
"30 is the new 20" refers much more to lifestyle changes in our society than looks, anyway. Women are staying single longer and taking more time before settling down with a partner or spouse, and that leads to older women living the lifestyles formerly reserved to younger women. It has little to do with trying to get 30-yr-old women to look like they are 20. Do you have some kind of insecurity about your own age? Because for the record, you look fucking fantastic, and I wish I had even a modicum of your style sense. Not everyone who says something about age or body type is trying to exert pressure, and we shouldn't have to censor our honest communication to avoid giving some random insecure person ammunition to shoot themselves down. They're going to do it anyway. I've been there; if you have a poor self image, you will interpret any statement to support your own insecurity.
Also... Um... I would like to point out that a good portion of the crew is at or approaching 30, and I don't think any of you guys are any less attractive than you were when I met you. In some cases, you are more attractive now. *cough*molestache*cough* People at 30 don't really look much different to me from their mid-twenties unless there is some other factor contributing, like having babies, smoking, or obesity. If you're gonna have a baby with someone, be prepared for the physical aftermath.
Comments
Unless that someone gains 200 pounds in a weekend :S
You listen to the Savage Love podcast? You should. The other day there was a call from a woman who had put on a little weight - a little, not an obese ton - and her husband pretended he was taking a cute sexy picture of her, then called her over and showed her in exacting detail all the areas where she was putting on weight and he thought she looked bad.
It was bad. The baffled hurt in her voice made me want to cry tears made of fists.
This is the single largest problem I have seen in most bad relationships. I can't even remember the number of people I have had to counsel that the person they love is the problem and isn't going to change. Parents, siblings, partners... it can come from anywhere. It's damn hard to deal with. I've been in that position myself, and I stayed there for way longer than I should have because I was emotionally blinded and attached. It makes you want to bad things to the people who cause that kind of pain. Fuck those guys.
It was because of Patricia in Breathless that I went for the pixie cut. Thankfully short hair works for me.
:P
I think it's completely reasonable to expect some fluctuation, and like I said, we all get old and fall apart eventually -- and I'm sure our expectations will tend to change with time. You're right that it's about priorities. To me, physical attractiveness is important in a relationship. It's far from the most important thing, but it's one of the things that has to be there. If I'm no longer attracted to my partner to the point that I don't even want to have sex with her, then how is it even a romantic relationship anymore? People have a right to expect their reasonable needs to be met in a relationship, to move on if their partner is unwilling or unable to meet their needs, and to not be vilified for it. A man who's too interested in video games to give his partner the attention she needs is not much different than a woman who's too interested in ice cream to try to stay in shape for her partner. Or vice-versa, of course -- women have just as much a right to expect their men to take care of themselves, though I think far fewer actually assert that right.
Now, the episode of Savage Love that Balderdash mentioned -- that's way over the line. From what the caller said, her husband was absolutely being abusive. However, I've been listening to and reading Dan Savage for years, and I can't count how many times he's counseled someone on how to deal gently with a partner who's gaining weight, and how okay it is to leave them if they won't do anything about it. "Major offense" is one thing -- simply no longer being physically attracted to someone is another. But if a person has abandoned any efforts to take care their appearance, and is unwilling to change despite their partner's feelings, I think "major offense" is a reasonable response.
edit: Isn't it all subjective? I know people's family members harping on them because they are not stick skinny, or because they gained, like, 5 pounds. What if the husband had completely unrealistic standards of beauty? This is why some women hate for their boyfriends to see them without makeup, and feel ashamed. I think a person's physical appearance should be treated a lot like their personality. You can ask them to correct some annoying personal habits, (or ask someone to, for example, shave their mustache), but you aren't going to change who they naturally are. Just like you can't date a hot person and expect for them to adjust their whole personality for you, you can't date someone and make them into your perfect beauty swan.
Pop culture tells you everyone wants pretty, skinny, young people, but the reality is that the majority of people have their own tastes and preferences, and it just takes some time to figure out what they are. What I personally am attracted is a lot different than the "male ideal" generally held up by the media. Maybe you (and others) are putting too much stock in what the media says our culture likes. Sure, there is a segment of the population that likes shallow, pretty, dumb people. That's their thing. I don't think it's as prevalent as the media seems to show, given what the majority of the people I know look like.
There is a gigantic difference between a person's physical attractiveness and "hotness." Someone might not be hot when all their hair falls out from chemo, but that doesn't mean their partner will no longer find them attractive. Physical attraction often grows from an emotional bond, which doesn't go away just because someone's appearance changes a little.
Get over it, guys.
Seriously.
What your buds think is really, really, really not something that should be determining how you treat your partner.
With the Savage Love weight issue, it was definitely cruel for that person call his partner horrible because she gained weight. But it isn't a weight issue exactly, as you could take anything about a person's personality, dissect it, and slap it in their face, telling them that they are wrong. Like it's some sort of intervention. That's just being a douchebag. Weight for Women (and Men to an extent) is just even a more crucial issue nowadays because we have more fat people now than ever, a new opinion of the perfect woman, an intense amount of science and productivity all about controlling weight...it's a pun, but it's a huge part of public thinking.
In fact, if you were to say society wants anything from people right now, you'd be most correct in saying that it wants people to be vampires. :P
We're at the point where "society" is a confluence of several micro-cultures existing in the same space at the same time. Where one jerk thinks that is wife is ugly because she gained 5 pounds, some other jerk wants his wife to gain 100 pounds.
The only rules that matter any more are 1. figuring out what you want, 2. communicating with your partner, and 3. being receptive to your partner's needs. If something doesn't jive between the two of you, work it out or move on. Everything else (you have to be this tall or weigh this much or want this many kids) is pretty much a tossup. Be what you want to be and find someone who wants that.
Wanting your partner to gain or lose weight to fit some ideal that is unrealistic for their body type, age, etc. is just setting both oneself and one's partner up for being disappointed.
For anyone in a sexual relationship, physical attractiveness will come into play; however, expecting your size 6 girlfriend to be a size 6 into grandmotherhood is, in most cases, simply unrealistic. There is a difference between someone living a healthy, active lifestyle and maintaining a healthy body and someone staying a "hard body" their entire life. I am not saying that physical attractiveness is unimportant, but I also think that weight gain (as long as it is not extreme) shouldn't be the only factor in a person's physical attractiveness. Making an effort to please your partner is a really great way of showing that you care about them and their desires. On the flip side, attempting to maintain the body of a 20 year old into ones 50's simply isn't possible. My point isn't that a person should make an effort, my point is that having some weight gain be a deal breaker is just as unrealistic as having gray hair, wrinkles, or zits be a deal breaker.
If you want a better example, look at Christina Hendricks. She's 35 and a size 14, and is widely considered one of the sexiest women out there today. Hollywood designers won't make dresses for her because they think she's too big, but it's clear that the opinions of some Hollywood fashion folks have little bearing as to how the majority of people see her attractiveness.
The whole point about "30 is the new 20" and the various shows is that age is no longer the universal societal issue that it once was. There is a growing shift in consciousness towards a more realistic view of attractiveness.
Yes, people who expect you to stay the same size forever are unrealistic, but they can certainly find someone who is the size they want without much trouble. It's up to the people involved in a relationship to communicate their needs and wants to each other, and try to work out the differences where things come into conflict. Weight gain can be one of those things, but so can a host of other factors.
"30 is the new 20" refers much more to lifestyle changes in our society than looks, anyway. Women are staying single longer and taking more time before settling down with a partner or spouse, and that leads to older women living the lifestyles formerly reserved to younger women. It has little to do with trying to get 30-yr-old women to look like they are 20. Do you have some kind of insecurity about your own age? Because for the record, you look fucking fantastic, and I wish I had even a modicum of your style sense. Not everyone who says something about age or body type is trying to exert pressure, and we shouldn't have to censor our honest communication to avoid giving some random insecure person ammunition to shoot themselves down. They're going to do it anyway. I've been there; if you have a poor self image, you will interpret any statement to support your own insecurity.
Also... Um... I would like to point out that a good portion of the crew is at or approaching 30, and I don't think any of you guys are any less attractive than you were when I met you. In some cases, you are more attractive now. *cough*molestache*cough* People at 30 don't really look much different to me from their mid-twenties unless there is some other factor contributing, like having babies, smoking, or obesity. If you're gonna have a baby with someone, be prepared for the physical aftermath.