You're vastly oversimplifying things. Parents have responsibilities both for and towards their own children. That does not mean that bad children are inherently the product of poor parenting. Children are still autonomous persons. They still have the ability to act on their own, and their own peers and other guardians and role models. You can't just call every child that ever has a bad moment a victim of bad parenting. Just because the parents have some responsibilities towards their child does not dictate that they've been bad parents. Don't forget that kids grow up into adults. And it's not some simple line in the sand of turning eighteen, but a process. There are a lot of steps in that process, and a lot of stages, and all kinds of layers to that onion.
Shit's complicated. You can ivory tower your feelings on this stuff all you want, but that's some bullshit prose you've got going on.
Absolutely correct! But your implication that nature is entirely out of the hands of parents is flawed. You don't get to pick what sort of genitals your child will want to play with when they grow up, but you DO get to teach them anger management skills, for example.
You're vastly oversimplifying things. Parents have responsibilities both for and towards their own children. That does not mean that bad children are inherently the product of poor parenting. Children are still autonomous persons. They still have the ability to act on their own, and their own peers and other guardians and role models. You can't just call every child that ever has a bad moment a victim of bad parenting. Just because the parents have some responsibilities towards their child does not dictate that they've been bad parents. Don't forget that kids grow up into adults. And it's not some simple line in the sand of turning eighteen, but a process. There are a lot of steps in that process, and a lot of stages, and all kinds of layers to that onion.
Shit's complicated. You can ivory tower your feelings on this stuff all you want, but that's some bullshit prose you've got going on.
Sounds like you've got a troubled kid and you're trying to salve your ego, to me.
As a parent, you give your kid the training and tools to be a good person. If they turn out to be a bad person, you've failed. It doesn't matter what external influences or complications arose in the interim. You are responsible for the success or failure of your child rearing. This is parenting boiled down to its simplest equation.
Sure, unfair things happen. Shit goes down that's not your fault. That does not remove your responsibility.
What should we tell parents who have children with autism spectrum disorder? Or how about those with clinical depression? Or childhood schizophrenia? Or bi-polar disorder?
"Sorry, but it's your fault your child is clinically crazy."
Uh, yeah, you can. It's the distinction between fault and responsibility. Adults are often responsible for things that are not their fault. It's still a failure. Life's not fair.
Fault indicates a directly causal relationship. Screwing up also indicates a directly causal relationship. When you or I screw up, that's an active verb.
Being "responsible" means that you have some influence on the outcome, but also have an obligation to deal with the result of the outcome. Active input is not needed for responsibility - sometimes it just happens.
So when you say that a bad kid = you screwed up, you're saying that the parent in question is at fault. They have a directly causal relationship.
Later, you said that it may not be their fault. But your assertion of "you screwed up" must still be in play.
Many things are the "fault" of parents. Some things are not. Biological systems are complicated, with variables that cannot be adequately controlled in a laboratory - let alone in the real world. Your over-simplification of the situation is a logically and factually fallacious technique to allow you to claim superiority over other groups.
Edit: This is interesting. You're actually conflating "responsibility" with "fault."
Sorry, this type of thinking is a product of the "nobody is responsible" epidemic that's flooding this country, heck the whole first world, over the last two decades. If you raise a shithead, barring biologically based disorders, you have fucked up. There is no such thing as a "bad seed" except in cases of mental illness.
Sorry, this type of thinking is the product of "rationalizing out the complexity" of an inherently complex issue.
Sorry, if you have a bad kid, you've screwed up. You're ultimately responsible for your child. If external influences have played a role in the kid being screwed up, you're still responsible for not adequately sheltering your kid from those external influences or otherwise mitigating them.
It may not be your FAULT, but you are still RESPONSIBLE.
This distinction seems to be lost on most of this generation.
Key word: sheltering. Are you saying its okay to be a helicopter parent? Why don't we all just give up and put kids in homeschool, right? Ugh.
What should we tell parents who have children with autism spectrum disorder? Or how about those with clinical depression? Or childhood schizophrenia? Or bi-polar disorder?
"Sorry, but it's your fault your child is clinically crazy."
I already addressed kids with biologically based disorders. My own youngest daughter is on the autism spectrum. You do what you can do. She's very belligerent at times. Ultimately her behavior is still my responsibility, even if it's not my fault.
I think the distinction between "fault" and responsibility" is really the crux of this argument. You folks don't seem to grok it.
Sorry, this type of thinking is a product of the "nobody is responsible" epidemic that's flooding this country, heck the whole first world, over the last two decades. If you raise a shithead, barring biologically based disorders, you have fucked up. There is no such thing as a "bad seed" except in cases of mental illness.
Sorry, this type of thinking is the product of "rationalizing out the complexity" of an inherently complex issue.
Sorry, if you have a bad kid, you've screwed up. You're ultimately responsible for your child. If external influences have played a role in the kid being screwed up, you're still responsible for not adequately sheltering your kid from those external influences or otherwise mitigating them.
It may not be your FAULT, but you are still RESPONSIBLE.
This distinction seems to be lost on most of this generation.
Key word: sheltering. Are you saying its okay to be a helicopter parent? Why don't we all just give up and put kids in homeschool, right? Ugh.
So wait, you picked one word out of my entire argument in this thread, used that ONE WORD to build a ridiculous model of who you've decided I am as a parent, and then you want me to address you seriously in discussion? PFfffffffft.
So wait, you picked one word out of my entire argument in this thread, used that ONE WORD to build a ridiculous model of who you've decided I am as a parent, and then you want me to address you seriously in discussion? PFfffffffft.
Hey, everyone else here on the forum does it, why not me? :-P
So wait, you picked one word out of my entire argument in this thread, used that ONE WORD to build a ridiculous model of who you've decided I am as a parent, and then you want me to address you seriously in discussion? PFfffffffft.
That's not the proper way to react to that sort of point. You step back, correct and clarify your position, and respectfully re-submit it to the discussion. You must have had horrible parenting...
So wait, you picked one word out of my entire argument in this thread, used that ONE WORD to build a ridiculous model of who you've decided I am as a parent, and then you want me to address you seriously in discussion? PFfffffffft.
Hey, everyone else here on the forum does it, why not me? :-P
What should we tell parents who have children with autism spectrum disorder? Or how about those with clinical depression? Or childhood schizophrenia? Or bi-polar disorder?
"Sorry, but it's your fault your child is clinically crazy."
I think the distinction between "fault" and responsibility" is really the crux of this argument. You folks don't seem to grok it.
I like the way you've said the same thing repeatedly without ever once clarifying. But this time, you used the word properly. I'll make your argument for you since you don't seem to be interested in doing it:
Your child's behavior is your responsibility, in that you have an obligation to manage it and deal with the consequences, whether or not you've actually done anything to engender said behavior. Whether or not you are the cause. You are answerable for you child's behavior - which means you are charged with explaining it and dealing with the ramifications.
You've also said "responsible for" in the thread. That's a poor use of the word that is synonymous with "causing" or "fault."
You are not responsible for your child's behavior - you have a responsibility to your child and their behavior. Big difference.
No, I don't agree, Until your child is legally an adult, you are responsible for their behavior. Their behavior may not even be under your control especially in the case of mental or behavioral disorders, but you're still responsible for it.
I'll just ignore your various attempts to insult my intelligence.
So wait, you're going to fall back on the legal definition of responsibility? Are we arguing the law? I didn't think we were, but we can. That's a different boat to sink.
Also, you ought to make this into a new topic, since this is...The Dating thread! We seem to have gotten to a separate point altogether...As per usual...
Also, you ought to make this into a new topic, since this is...The Dating thread! We seem to have gotten to a separate point altogether...As per usual...
Nah, there's little reason to think that the moral relativism discussion has more than a few posts in it from here.
Comments
Shit's complicated. You can ivory tower your feelings on this stuff all you want, but that's some bullshit prose you've got going on.
As a parent, you give your kid the training and tools to be a good person. If they turn out to be a bad person, you've failed. It doesn't matter what external influences or complications arose in the interim. You are responsible for the success or failure of your child rearing. This is parenting boiled down to its simplest equation.
Sure, unfair things happen. Shit goes down that's not your fault. That does not remove your responsibility.
"Sorry, but it's your fault your child is clinically crazy."
Being "responsible" means that you have some influence on the outcome, but also have an obligation to deal with the result of the outcome. Active input is not needed for responsibility - sometimes it just happens.
So when you say that a bad kid = you screwed up, you're saying that the parent in question is at fault. They have a directly causal relationship.
Later, you said that it may not be their fault. But your assertion of "you screwed up" must still be in play.
Many things are the "fault" of parents. Some things are not. Biological systems are complicated, with variables that cannot be adequately controlled in a laboratory - let alone in the real world. Your over-simplification of the situation is a logically and factually fallacious technique to allow you to claim superiority over other groups.
Edit: This is interesting. You're actually conflating "responsibility" with "fault."
I think the distinction between "fault" and responsibility" is really the crux of this argument. You folks don't seem to grok it.
So wait, you picked one word out of my entire argument in this thread, used that ONE WORD to build a ridiculous model of who you've decided I am as a parent, and then you want me to address you seriously in discussion? PFfffffffft.
Your child's behavior is your responsibility, in that you have an obligation to manage it and deal with the consequences, whether or not you've actually done anything to engender said behavior. Whether or not you are the cause. You are answerable for you child's behavior - which means you are charged with explaining it and dealing with the ramifications.
You've also said "responsible for" in the thread. That's a poor use of the word that is synonymous with "causing" or "fault."
You are not responsible for your child's behavior - you have a responsibility to your child and their behavior. Big difference.
I'll just ignore your various attempts to insult my intelligence.
Now we can get into a big argument about moral relativism.
Edit: I invented two words that both ended up being search terms for things in google before giving up. WTF?
That should take care of all arguments in a neat little bundle.
Also, you ought to make this into a new topic, since this is...The Dating thread! We seem to have gotten to a separate point altogether...As per usual...