But some girls do turn guys into cuddle bitches, and that is something that actually pisses me off.
Being a cuddle bitch isn't necessarily bad. I mean you are getting the cuddling :-p
It's more when girls actually DO lead guys on, but then repeatedly push them out of the relationship status in favor of someone/something else because they know they can.
See, being in the friend zone is only a problem for people who are not friends with the people they date, or whom never have more intimate relations with friends, and not just "Lovers" in the traditional sense.
However I can see how people tend to disappointed when a friendship doesn't blossom into more if they are searching for that, as someone who tries to form very deep friendships with a lot of people, A. It's time consuming and B. I find people start to pull away when they get someone "significant" in their lives. Obviously being married, I'm not looking for extra stuff but being someone who likes to be close to his friends it does suck sometimes that people start to pull away towards other angles and while you can still be great friends you start losing that "platonic Intimacy" that you can have. Usually this occurs when they find some sort of romantic relationship.
TL:DR: People want to get closer to certain people then is sometimes possible.
What Rym said. If you actually care about the other person emotionally, being their friend should be a plus instead of something to mope about. Its like that asofterworld comic: "I love the friend zone. Who couldn't use more friends?"
The frustration comes from serially attempting and failing to connect to someone on a deeper level, not from the logistics of managing too many friends :-P The reasons for the failure are multitudinous and can't be easily packaged into a one paragraph conclusion or advice.
It's like when 13 year olds date. They're not (typically) making out or having sex. They're just saying "yeah we're dating now." It's a mutual elevation in status between two (sometimes more) people and it's socially and psychologically meaningful. Pretending this doesn't exist or is only about sex is silly.
Relationships are only boosts to social status in certain age brackets and social circles, though. Most of my friends don't care that I'm single, and those that have anything at all to say about it are somewhat jealous that they can't just do whatever the hell they want 100% of the time. I mean, they're having more sex than me (or not, it depends), but overall I'm at that age where being single is fucking awesome and all my friends know it.
What Rym said. If you actually care about the other person emotionally, being their friend should be a plus instead of something to mope about. Its like that asofterworld comic: "I love the friend zone. Who couldn't use more friends?"
The frustration comes from serially attempting and failing to connect to someone on a deeper level, not from the logistics of managing too many friends :-P The reasons for the failure are multitudinous and can't be easily packaged into a one paragraph conclusion or advice.
It's like when 13 year olds date. They're not (typically) making out or having sex. They're just saying "yeah we're dating now." It's a mutual elevation in status between two (sometimes more) people and it's socially and psychologically meaningful. Pretending this doesn't exist or is only about sex is silly.
Relationships are only boosts to social status in certain age brackets and social circles, though. Most of my friends don't care that I'm single, and those that have anything at all to say about it are somewhat jealous that they can't just do whatever the hell they want 100% of the time. I mean, they're having more sex than me (or not, it depends), but overall I'm at that age where being single is fucking awesome and all my friends know it.
Some people are emotionally "built" for being single and some aren't. I lived alone for a year and a half and hated every second of it.
All I was saying is that people frustrated that none of their relationships ever progress to "couple" status aren't necessarily worried about the sex (although sex is good, I like sex.)
See, being in the friend zone is only a problem for people who are not friends with the people they date, or whom never have more intimate relations with friends, and not just "Lovers" in the traditional sense.
I'm trying to parse this and just can't. I think you're not understanding the friend zone, or I'm not understanding your Zen/Buddhist love/sex voodoo scene, man.
It's rare when the person is actually leading someone on. Usually, in my experience, the guy is reading into things too much and assuming an interest that isn't there in the first place. Most of the "she was leading me on, but dated a biker instead" sob stories I've ever heard were coming from people who were interpreting basic politeness and simple friendly conversation as deep sexual interest.
See, being in the friend zone is only a problem for people who are not friends with the people they date, or whom never have more intimate relations with friends, and not just "Lovers" in the traditional sense.
I'm trying to parse this and just can't. I think you're not understanding the friend zone, or I'm not understanding your Zen/Buddhist love/sex voodoo scene, man.
I think think Love Sex Voodoo is the name of a really bad punk band I saw once.
The problem with dating advice is that there are so many variables.
That points out one of the chinks in the dating/hanging equivelence. It often takes a mutual perspective/goals for any particular dynamic to work well. And I can imagine that doesn't work right in every social circle/culture/society. How mature are the people you hang around with? What makes perfect sense in my late 20s might seem like it's entirely better advice for when I was 15, but the two had to operate in completely different worlds. Similarly as Muppet later pointed out, the culture has shifted, but there are going to still be remnants of people with some mix of the previous culture as well.
Hah, before I could post this seems there were 15 more posts and they already hit on the tangent I was going to post about. This also makes me continue to be envious of people living in New York and other places that are culturally ahead a bit from where I live.
Also, be aware that many people are very sensual/physical in their relations independent of actual sex or "dating." Many people I know are quite physical in their friendly affection: hugs outweight handshakes and backrubs/friendly lounging are the rule rather than the exception.
Basically, just because the catgirl at the con hugs you, or you spent the evening watching a movie in eachothers arms, doesn't necessarily imply actual sexual interest.
It's rare when the person is actually leading someone on. Usually, in my experience, the guy is reading into things too much and assuming an interest that isn't there in the first place. Most of the "she was leading me on, but dated a biker instead" sob stories I've ever heard were coming from people who were interpreting basic politeness and simple friendly conversation as deep sexual interest.
There was a girl earlier this year who accepted an offer as a date from me while in a weird situation with someone else - she wound up in a relationship with that person but took about a week afterwards to tell me. I think that counts.
Also sometimes people who have anxieties about communication will be afraid to tell someone they're not interested so as not to hurt their feelings or make things "awkward," which wound up really hurting one of my friends a few weeks ago.
So, leading people on does actually happen, but it's more common that it's where someone notices someone else's interest and just doesn't tell them off.
It's rare when the person is actually leading someone on. Usually, in my experience, the guy is reading into things too much and assuming an interest that isn't there in the first place. Most of the "she was leading me on, but dated a biker instead" sob stories I've ever heard were coming from people who were interpreting basic politeness and simple friendly conversation as deep sexual interest.
I think I'd say "uncommon" rather than "rare". Maybe I had a bitchy social circle in my twenties...
See, being in the friend zone is only a problem for people who are not friends with the people they date, or whom never have more intimate relations with friends, and not just "Lovers" in the traditional sense.
I'm trying to parse this and just can't. I think you're not understanding the friend zone, or I'm not understanding your Zen/Buddhist love/sex voodoo scene, man.
I'm saying, If there is such a thing as the friend zone, then it is precisely what you make it. I'm fine with just being friends with someone, and noting that I don't view being friends as an exclusively non-sexual relationship like many seem to. Who couldn't use more friends? And if the sex was that important, just go out and find a prostitute. You want a relationship? Then you're going to have to find someone else, considering that romantic relationships require two people who wish to be in one, not one person and a lot of pining.
Also, noting the importance of being friends with the person you're dating. Interpreting the friend zone more like a venn diagram, than city zoning laws.
Finally, I should note that all accusations of sexual voodoo leveled against me are currently untrue. Sexual Vodun, however...
I think think Love Sex Voodoo is the name of a really bad punk band I saw once.
Great name for a band, though. And still better than what Gwen Stephani called her fashion label.
But some girls do turn guys into cuddle bitches, and that is something that actually pisses me off.
As someone who spent most of a year as a cuddle bitch, it's actually pretty nice.
I don't mind being a cuddle friend. It's like all the nice intimacy of a girlfriend, but without all the responsibility. You can have sex with whoever you want, never meet her parents, be a drunk asshole when you're at parties together, and still get cuddles and affection. It's pretty much a win-win.
I fail to understand why guys get so mad over things as nice as a female friend to play Dragon Quest with, or no-strings-attached hardcore cuddling. These are great things! And then your new friend can set you up with her friends for actual dates and sex and hanging out, and everything comes full circle. C'mon, dudes, shit is so awesome.
Also, be aware that many people are very sensual/physical in their relations independent of actual sex or "dating." Many people I know are quite physical in their friendly affection: hugs outweight handshakes and backrubs/friendly lounging are the rule rather than the exception.
Basically, just because the catgirl at the con hugs you, or you spent the evening watching a movie in eachothers arms, doesn't necessarily imply actual sexual interest.
See this is a dynamic I was never a part of and so I don't get it. I think it's a fairly new thing. In my twenties, if you sat and watched a movie and cuddled, there was going to be boning later. It was like lighting a fuse.
It's not necessarily bad to decouple physical affection from sex, but it does seem pretty odd to me. Like, it seems like something you'd do if you had some sort of traumatic experience in your life, rather than just being the social norm in a particular group.
See, being in the friend zone is only a problem for people who are not friends with the people they date, or whom never have more intimate relations with friends, and not just "Lovers" in the traditional sense.
I'm trying to parse this and just can't. I think you're not understanding the friend zone, or I'm not understanding your Zen/Buddhist love/sex voodoo scene, man.
I'm saying, If there is such a thing as the friend zone, then it is precisely what you make it. I'm fine with just being friends with someone, and noting that I don't view being friends as an exclusively non-sexual relationship like many seem to.
Also, noting the importance of being friends with the person you're dating. Interpreting the friend zone more like a venn diagram, than city zoning laws.
Oh sure. I think you'd have to be some kind of asshole to think that friendship & dating are mutually exclusive.
Also, be aware that many people are very sensual/physical in their relations independent of actual sex or "dating." Many people I know are quite physical in their friendly affection: hugs outweight handshakes and backrubs/friendly lounging are the rule rather than the exception.
Basically, just because the catgirl at the con hugs you, or you spent the evening watching a movie in eachothers arms, doesn't necessarily imply actual sexual interest.
See this is a dynamic I was never a part of and so I don't get it. I think it's a fairly new thing. In my twenties, if you sat and watched a movie and cuddled, there was going to be boning later. It was like lighting a fuse.
It's not necessarily bad to decouple physical affection from sex, but it does seem pretty odd to me. Like, it seems like something you'd do if you had some sort of traumatic experience in your life, rather than just being the social norm in a particular group.
I think people just like contact and we're finally at the point as a society where you can be all like, "Hey, I like you and I want to touch you in these ways to express that, but there are some forms of contact that aren't part of our relationship and that's okay too."
People are just people. They interact with each other. Applying all these labels to everything restricts your thinking about things into certain patterns, which are all bullshit. You are all too obsessed with categorizing people, or trying to move them from one category to another. Just live your life and interact with other people along the way in whatever way you and they wish.
When I talk to a hot girl and she smiles at me, my penis says "have sex! omg sex!" I imagine it is the same for most other people with functioning penises. I have learned that that is just biology. I am not a cave man. I ignore it as much as I possibly can. My eyes can't seem to stop looking at it, but I absolutely never let it factor into any decisions that I make. I decide everything with my conscious intellectual brain.
It is blazingly obvious that many of you let testosterone cloud your thinking, and you are not even conscious of it. You need to do some meta-introspection. Think about what you think and why you think the things you do. If you discover that the reason you think something is because your own biology has the best of you, then conquer that thought and throw it away. Live your life based on intellect and not on barbarism.
Oh sure. I think you'd have to be some kind of asshole to think that friendship & dating are mutually exclusive.
You'd be suprised by how often I see it. People try to be friends with other people, but only lovers with their partner. It's slowly becoming less common, but it's far from eliminated yet.
Also, despite the fact that doubtless, Scott would consider me a testosterone fueled barbarian, I do quite agree. Mostly, at least, but the parts I disagree with are beside the point, a different topic to do with personal perception and cognition, rather than dating or any of that sort of thing.
Yeah. The whole "are those two dating or not?" thing barely exists anymore, and was never a big deal for our crew.
It sounds like a recipe for arbitrary boundaries, mismatched expectations, and a shit-ton of stress to me.
It was actually the exact opposite. When hugging is the norm for everyone, the stress and drama over physical contact basically disappears. From there, everything's great.
I've shared beds with girls I've found extremely attractive (to put it lightly) with neither drama nor escalation. ;^) Physicality is just a part of friendship, and it's better for everyone. It makes friendships closer, and doesn't need to intrude into the landscapes of sex or defined relationships.
Yeah. The whole "are those two dating or not?" thing barely exists anymore, and was never a big deal for our crew.
It sounds like a recipe for arbitrary boundaries, mismatched expectations, and a shit-ton of stress to me.
It was actually the exact opposite. When hugging is the norm for everyone, the stress and drama over physical contact basically disappears. From there, everything's great.
I've shared beds with girls I've found extremely attractive (to put it lightly) with neither drama nor escalation. ;^) Physicality is just a part of friendship, and it's better for everyone. It makes friendships closer, and doesn't need to intrude into the landscapes of sex or defined relationships.
I'd be lost. I'd have no idea how to progress a relationship out of friendship and into romance. No wonder people are frustrated and posting endlessly about friendzoning...
It sounds like you're trying to obsolete coupling, which, hey, godspeed, but I don't think it's gonna happen.
Apreche - recognizing the role of biology in our lives and working within its parameters doesn't make somebody a caveman. A healthy person doesn't *ignore* biology, he integrates it.
@Muppet, on converting friendships to relationships: It's as easy as just asking, "Hey, I know we're friends, but I'm really interested in you and if you feel the same way do you want to go on a date sometime?" And if she says no, holy shit, nothing changes.
Although, I agree with your biology statement. Sometimes pooping is inconvenient. That doesn't make someone less evolved for finding a bathroom.
One thing you'd better realize is that if you are in your twenties (or younger), you look fucking fantastic right now. This is the best you're likely to ever look. Don't sit around worrying about your appearance. Don't fret in the mirror. You look great. Go out and be confident.
Retroactive confidence and realization of how great you looked 15 years ago is no help at all. Don't wait for it.
Comments
TL:DR: People want to get closer to certain people then is sometimes possible.
//Attention Whore
All I was saying is that people frustrated that none of their relationships ever progress to "couple" status aren't necessarily worried about the sex (although sex is good, I like sex.)
Hah, before I could post this seems there were 15 more posts and they already hit on the tangent I was going to post about. This also makes me continue to be envious of people living in New York and other places that are culturally ahead a bit from where I live.
Basically, just because the catgirl at the con hugs you, or you spent the evening watching a movie in eachothers arms, doesn't necessarily imply actual sexual interest.
Also sometimes people who have anxieties about communication will be afraid to tell someone they're not interested so as not to hurt their feelings or make things "awkward," which wound up really hurting one of my friends a few weeks ago.
So, leading people on does actually happen, but it's more common that it's where someone notices someone else's interest and just doesn't tell them off.
Also, noting the importance of being friends with the person you're dating. Interpreting the friend zone more like a venn diagram, than city zoning laws.
Finally, I should note that all accusations of sexual voodoo leveled against me are currently untrue. Sexual Vodun, however... Great name for a band, though. And still better than what Gwen Stephani called her fashion label.
I fail to understand why guys get so mad over things as nice as a female friend to play Dragon Quest with, or no-strings-attached hardcore cuddling. These are great things! And then your new friend can set you up with her friends for actual dates and sex and hanging out, and everything comes full circle. C'mon, dudes, shit is so awesome.
It's not necessarily bad to decouple physical affection from sex, but it does seem pretty odd to me. Like, it seems like something you'd do if you had some sort of traumatic experience in your life, rather than just being the social norm in a particular group.
When I talk to a hot girl and she smiles at me, my penis says "have sex! omg sex!" I imagine it is the same for most other people with functioning penises. I have learned that that is just biology. I am not a cave man. I ignore it as much as I possibly can. My eyes can't seem to stop looking at it, but I absolutely never let it factor into any decisions that I make. I decide everything with my conscious intellectual brain.
It is blazingly obvious that many of you let testosterone cloud your thinking, and you are not even conscious of it. You need to do some meta-introspection. Think about what you think and why you think the things you do. If you discover that the reason you think something is because your own biology has the best of you, then conquer that thought and throw it away. Live your life based on intellect and not on barbarism.
=p
Also, despite the fact that doubtless, Scott would consider me a testosterone fueled barbarian, I do quite agree. Mostly, at least, but the parts I disagree with are beside the point, a different topic to do with personal perception and cognition, rather than dating or any of that sort of thing.
I've shared beds with girls I've found extremely attractive (to put it lightly) with neither drama nor escalation. ;^) Physicality is just a part of friendship, and it's better for everyone. It makes friendships closer, and doesn't need to intrude into the landscapes of sex or defined relationships.
It sounds like you're trying to obsolete coupling, which, hey, godspeed, but I don't think it's gonna happen.
Apreche - recognizing the role of biology in our lives and working within its parameters doesn't make somebody a caveman. A healthy person doesn't *ignore* biology, he integrates it.
Hardly. We all eventually coupled-off anyway. But we're all still just as close as we were prior to that.
Although, I agree with your biology statement. Sometimes pooping is inconvenient. That doesn't make someone less evolved for finding a bathroom.
Retroactive confidence and realization of how great you looked 15 years ago is no help at all. Don't wait for it.
I'm never going to have a girlfriend again! XD