Anyway, regarding the rest of your comment, I don't expect everything to be as great as the greatest episodes, I expect every episode to be memorable. Every episode of Ouran, Bebop, 30 Rock, etc. isn't necessarily as great as their best episodes, but it is memorable. MLP has left the realm of memory, with this episode being down right unpleasant.
Anyway, regarding the rest of your comment, I don't expect everything to be as great as the greatest episodes, I expect every episode to be memorable. Every episode of Ouran, Bebop, 30 Rock, etc. isn't necessarily as great as their best episodes, but it is memorable. MLP has left the realm of memory, with this episode being down right unpleasant.
See, now this is the double edged sword of fandom. Ive seen this on other forums and discussions as well on this episode; people being enamoured by the fan culture to the point that unreasonable expectations develop, particularly based on a certain characters and their traits. I do think that is happening to some here (shadoworc)
This was not an episode to please fanboys to be sure, even then, unlike luna eclipsed, this had a particular audience in mind: siblings and their fond memories of themselves, A friend of mine so loved this episode she called me up to talk about it. While i do not have siblings, i was very satisfied for what it was worth and what it tried to do, and much preferred such character pieces over say, a more zany episode like lesson zero
I do think calling this " down right unpleasant" and "left the realm of memory" simply because it was not for you or belittled an exaggerated expectation, is jumping the shark here. Also @shadoworc, the anime shows, while memorable, i do believe you would be hard pressed to actually give a summary of every single episode with clarity off the bat.
While you could have a point, lifecircle, I hated Luna Eclipsed because it catered to much too the fans. You may notice I said -- not implicitly -- to lower expectations for it.
Also @shadoworc, the anime shows, while memorable, i do believe you would be hard pressed to actually give a summary of every single episode with clarity off the bat.
I would, but last time I did something like that, everyone got pissy and called it passive aggressive bullshit, so you probably don't want it.
Ok guys. You have to remember what jumping the shark really means. It comes for the show happy days. There was a series of episodes where the Fonz jumped his motorcycle over some trucks or cars or whatever. There were a lot of episodes of Happy Days. Not every single one was amazing and memorable, but it remained a relatively entertaining show. It jumped the shark when it became a ridiculous self-parody and the Fonz literally jumped over a shark while water-skiing.
Even the Simpsons, which is not so great anymore, hasn't jumped the shark. Just because the episodes now are generally worse than they used to be back in the day doesn't constitute shark jumpage. There has to be a specific really bad episode that you can point to as going from ok to awful. The Simpsons went from great to mediocre. It still isn't painfully bad as those late Happy Days episodes. And even if you only look at the good seasons of the Simpsons, not all episodes are of the epic high quality.
I think a lot of people, especially nerds, have been too used to watching serial shows in recent years. That's mostly due to anime being mostly serial and also the popular live action US shows like Lost and Game of Thrones also being serials. When a show is serial, the lines between episodes blur into one big blob. Either the whole thing is good or bad. You don't really think about good episodes or bad episodes.
When you have an episodic show like MLP, it's understood that not every episode is going to be the same quality level. For there to be shark jumpage the show would have to get ridiculously bad, and remain so.
Another thing to pay attention to with MLP in particular is that different writers are on different episodes. Just look at Wikipedia to see who wrote which episode.
If you notice, the good episodes are primarly written by M.A. Larson and Meghan McCarthy with Amy Keating Rogers also doing a serviceable job and Charlotte Fullerton being hit or miss. Chris Savino did a good job on Stare Master, but that's the only episode he's written. Cindy Morrow, writer of Sisterhooves, hasn't really been so hot. Her best work was the Griffon episode, and Winter Wrap-Up, which was mostly musical.
If you look at the upcoming episodes you can already tell that some of them are definitely going to be awesome. In fact all of the next 3 look good based on the descriptions. Cootie Pox, Rainbow Dash, and Rainbow Dash. Win, win, win. I also bet that when the episodes come out you will continue to see the pattern of the writers. It's almost a guarantee that you'll see Meghan McCarthy or M.A. Larson as the writer on the ones we think are 20% cooler than the rest.
Thank you for that post, Scott. The phrase "jumping the shark" is super overused. Especially when the reason cited is because it ruined a dynamic that only ever existed in your imagination.
Yeah, with what's happened in MLP, it is HARDLY shark jumping. Phasing in Derpy is probably the only blatant fan pandering I've seen, which even then is still funny. IMO, they are still taking a lot of risks over the last two episodes. Did anyone really expect Luna to have a complete change in design and character last episode? Or how about Rarity having such lame parents now? The show is hardly anywhere close to having a dip in quality and I think I'll only complain if I get Show Stoppers or Feeling Pinkie Keen Levels of Bad (Which still have good parts.)
Even the Simpsons, which is not so great anymore, hasn't jumped the shark. Just because the episodes now are generally worse than they used to be back in the day doesn't constitute shark jumpage. There has to be a specific really bad episode that you can point to as going from ok to awful. The Simpsons went from great to mediocre. It still isn't painfully bad as those late Happy Days episodes. And even if you only look at the good seasons of the Simpsons, not all episodes are of the epic high quality.
Well, I would debate, this is the definition of shark jumping:
I thought this was a solid episode, and a much needed break after the pace of the last four. I like it more than at least some of those even though it didn't make me laugh out loud, but then I am heavily tilted towards this show's slice of life side. I also like it more than 2/3 of Morrow's other episodes (AKR is my personal favorite writer *for this series*, for what it's worth).
I don't really know where to start with ShadowOrc's concerns since: - I thought the last third of the first season was easily the strongest - There was no chance in heck they were ever going to do a heavy theme like death in this show - that's straight from Thiessen at Bronycon - I thought this episode actually dialed back Rarity from Lesson Zero, thank goodness - No fan catering in this episode (I didn't have a problem with Luna Eclipsed either)
I will say that the sense of the writers discovering the world is mostly gone, and that I'm less insanely invested in the show after the initial period of being blown away that such a show could be amazingly good. But my fandom level has dropped more to where it was at during peak seasons of Simpsons or South Park - it's the one thing I'm eager to watch each week, then I move on after watching each episode a few times. Except FiM has a couple great PMVs per week and the occasional amusing media breakout to keep me checking the fansites daily.
As for jumping the shark... I have to debate the points made about Simpsons. I distinctly remember the episodes that made me check out of caring about the Simpsons, the elf jockey episode and the grifter episode, and the episode that made me stop watching entirely, the Brazil episode. Simpsons today is not terrible, the episodes are certainly watchable and supposedly an improvement on a few seasons ago, but the spark is gone and the Simpsons is now (edit: as the above video demonstrates) a reinforcing part of popular culture rather than a critique. South Park is in the same boat (towelie intervention episode) although the recent two parter about the show getting stale sparked my interest a bit. Maybe "jump the shark" isn't quite an accurate description for this phenomenon if you look at the source and demand absolute awfulness, but the scenario I describe is certainly how it's commonly used for lack of a better term for this sort of thing.
Yeah, I had that thought too while I was watching it. This episode is pretty much the opposite of where I would start if I were showing episodes to someone skeptical of ponies. I liked "one day", I was thinking I would be laughing hard if I didn't just repeatedly watch AJ do "then, the apples" to Apple Bloom in the new Friendship is Witchcraft. Really similar gags but the FiW version built up more.
The show is hardly anywhere close to having a dip in quality and I think I'll only complain if I get Show Stoppers or Feeling Pinkie Keen Levels of Bad (Which still have good parts.)
And just to add to this... season 1 had a couple of bricks mixed in (and which ones they are will vary with taste, e.g. I've seen lots of people who *love* FPK although I can't stand most of it). This episode wasn't a brick in my books, but season 2 will probably have a few as well. When people get obsessed they start comparing every new episode to their personal top 3 and forget the misses and off nights.
I agree with Scott that people are too quick to call "jumped the shark" on things. I disagree however that the Simpsons hasn't jumped the shark. They jumped the shark when the show became little else except a vehicle for celebrity guest spots, while at the same time introducing completely unneeded continuity. The jokes became less something generated by the plot, but more something a la "hey, look what we're referencing" humor, which is only done worse by Family Guy.
I would call the episode "When You Dish Upon A Star" the Shark jumping moment. Hey, look how Homer becomes a completely incapable live-in maid for three celebrity guest stars. Hijinks are sure to ensue.
I agree with Scott that people are too quick to call "jumped the shark" on things. I disagree however that the Simpsons hasn't jumped the shark. They jumped the shark when the show became little else except a vehicle for celebrity guest spots, while at the same time introducing completely unneeded continuity. The jokes became less something generated by the plot, but more something a la "hey, look what we're referencing" humor, which is only done worse by Family Guy.
I would call the episode "When You Dish Upon A Star" the Shark jumping moment. Hey, look how Homer becomes a completely incapable live-in maid for three celebrity guest stars. Hijinks are sure to ensue.
Sir, I could very much kiss you right now. That's exactly what I believe to be the problems, but I would also include the referencing. (Seriously, try watching any new episode that doesn't have a trending topic, just mislabeled. "Nintendo Zii" or "Mixar") In a case of "Horrible Hindsight" the episode where Maude Flanders dies could be called a Shark Jumper, because now, we clearly know that the world follows the rule of Status Quo and will not go budge away from that.
Very much unlike MLP, which kind of instills why I love it more. The two parters are given extra importance, because the establish the relationships so much better.
Yeah, to have "Jump the shark" you need to have done something completely egregious like, say, have an episode about Hitler that does fuck all with him.
Those of you who think the Simpsons has jumped, but can't agree on what point, you clearly do not understand the difference between the Death Note problem and true shark jumping.
If you have read or watched Death Note (I hear the anime is very similar to the manga), there is a point in the middle of the story where things take a drastic change. Characters change and the plot takes a sharp turn at the fork in the road. Many people think that this is where Death Note jumps a shark, but that's not true.
It is true that the second half is not as good as the first half, but the second half isn't awful. It's just that everything is relative. Without some absolute measure, like a ruler, people measure everything relatively. Because that first half of Death Note is so amazingly good, the fact that the second half is just a little above average still makes it look like crap compared to the first half.
The Simpsons has the same problem. Newer Simpsons stuff is just average or slightly above average. It isn't consistently and painfully awful.
Also, chaosof99. You say it jumped when it became little more than a vehicle for celebrity guest appearances? I guess you only like the first two episodes ever. The Simpsons has always been full of celebrity cameos since the very beginning. It's just that more celebrities with bigger names became willing to come on the show as popularity increased.
You want to see some real shark jumpage? How about Star Wars Episode 1? Or supposedly the Usagi Drop manga makes a big shark jump after a time skip, I've only watched the anime. You could also bring the infamous island episodes of Nadia into the discussion.
Scott, you clearly didn't understand what I said. Yes, the Simpsons always had guest stars. They used them genuinely, either for comedic effect or gave them actual fictional characters to play. What I am saying is that they stopped using them because the episodes allowed them to, but they made the episodes to allow them to use guest stars. There's a difference between an episode like Star Raving Dad and When You Dish Upon A Star. The former was written because it's an interesting idea, funny and entertaining. The later was written because they can. There's a difference in reasons for doing and execution of it.
As for the Death Note problem you are again wrong because we are not confusing the two. Of course I don't expect you to get that and I can already tell this is one of those discussions that end in Scott proclaiming that he is absolutely right and everybody else is wrong.
Oh man, the celebrity maid episode. That was part of the descent too. Did Happy Days stay totally awful after the shark jump episode? Because the handful of Simpsons episodes various people have been listing were individually really painful to watch. Also, I would say that how the Simpsons handles celebrities has changed subtly. Back in the early days it seemed to be more that they would write a one-off gag that was at least slightly mocking the celebrity in question, and then the actual celebrity would decide to do it. Later on it seemed they were building entire segments of episodes around celebrities, and there was much less making fun of them. Of course when the other jokes aren't as good the celebrity bits stand out more and get used more in promotion.
If we're going to be picky about our definition of shark jump, I'd say that Star Wars doesn't qualify, because it came back after a nearly 2 decade break with completely different actors rather than being a single continuous series that was run into the ground. And Usagi Drop, oh man what happens with that isn't shark jumping at all, it's the Death Note problem in the second volume and then the ending, oh God the ending... if you've managed to remain blissfully unspoiled please keep doing so. I'll even concede the point.
Anyway we need a name for the phenomenon because it happens to just about every American serial show - anything that is a hit runs for too long and eventually descends into mediocrity. Death Note problem will never catch on because not enough Americans watch anime. Maybe we could call it the Simpsons problem.
Here, I have a way to dump the entire "jump the shark" argument altogether:
So far, I like Season 2 more than Season 1. I feel like the writers have a firm grasp of their world now, and they're really starting to go all-out with the characters.
So fuck you, there's no decline yet. Call me when things actually start sucking.
And for the record, "jumping the shark" in its original meaning referred to the moment when a show passes its peak, and then begins a decline into mediocrity from which it never recovers. It's usually impossible to tell that a shark jumping is occurring; it can usually only be detected in retrospect.
So should we talk about Simpsons or My Little Pony here? Well, I haven't seen Simpsons in ages, but I have seen the latest episode of My Little Pony, so I'll voice my opinion of that.
So yesterdays episode wasn't my favorite and was closer to the worst episodes, but that didn't coma as a surprise. I didn't expect the episode to be awesome and great, because I don't really like Rarity and the episode had quite a lot of focus on her. Still I appreciate the fact that they made a episode about sibling relations and the animation was still great. I really liked some of Sweetie Belle's mannerisms, when she crawled on the floor while bored she was just too cute.
And for the record, "jumping the shark" in its original meaning referred to the moment when a show passes its peak, and then begins a decline into mediocrity from which it never recovers. It's usually impossible to tell that a shark jumping is occurring; it can usually only be detected in retrospect.
Did Happy Days stay totally awful after the shark jump episode?
Nobody's really sure. It seemed like we all stopped watching. And actually, I'd had a hard time sticking with the show after Pat Morita left, so in my opinion the descent began at the end of season 3, long before the infamous shark, in the midst of season 5. The show ran another 6 seasons, though, so I imagine someone must have been watching it. Either that, or they just kept hoping they could milk it for more successful spin-offs.
And for the record, "jumping the shark" in its original meaning referred to the moment when a show passes its peak, and then begins a decline into mediocrity from which it never recovers. It's usually impossible to tell that a shark jumping is occurring; it can usually only be detected in retrospect.
It never feels that way to me, for some reason. Watching Fonzie jump the shark was for me the last straw after a long slide. It was the point of no return, not the beginning of the end. I wonder if other people felt that differently about the fourth and fifth seasons, or if the meaning had shifted significantly by the time that "jump the shark" web site brought the term into common usage.
Comments
See, now this is the double edged sword of fandom. Ive seen this on other forums and discussions as well on this episode; people being enamoured by the fan culture to the point that unreasonable expectations develop, particularly based on a certain characters and their traits. I do think that is happening to some here (shadoworc)
This was not an episode to please fanboys to be sure, even then, unlike luna eclipsed, this had a particular audience in mind: siblings and their fond memories of themselves, A friend of mine so loved this episode she called me up to talk about it. While i do not have siblings, i was very satisfied for what it was worth and what it tried to do, and much preferred such character pieces over say, a more zany episode like lesson zero
I do think calling this " down right unpleasant" and "left the realm of memory" simply because it was not for you or belittled an exaggerated expectation, is jumping the shark here. Also @shadoworc, the anime shows, while memorable, i do believe you would be hard pressed to actually give a summary of every single episode with clarity off the bat.
Even the Simpsons, which is not so great anymore, hasn't jumped the shark. Just because the episodes now are generally worse than they used to be back in the day doesn't constitute shark jumpage. There has to be a specific really bad episode that you can point to as going from ok to awful. The Simpsons went from great to mediocre. It still isn't painfully bad as those late Happy Days episodes. And even if you only look at the good seasons of the Simpsons, not all episodes are of the epic high quality.
I think a lot of people, especially nerds, have been too used to watching serial shows in recent years. That's mostly due to anime being mostly serial and also the popular live action US shows like Lost and Game of Thrones also being serials. When a show is serial, the lines between episodes blur into one big blob. Either the whole thing is good or bad. You don't really think about good episodes or bad episodes.
When you have an episodic show like MLP, it's understood that not every episode is going to be the same quality level. For there to be shark jumpage the show would have to get ridiculously bad, and remain so.
Another thing to pay attention to with MLP in particular is that different writers are on different episodes. Just look at Wikipedia to see who wrote which episode.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_My_Little_Pony:_Friendship_Is_Magic_episodes
If you notice, the good episodes are primarly written by M.A. Larson and Meghan McCarthy with Amy Keating Rogers also doing a serviceable job and Charlotte Fullerton being hit or miss. Chris Savino did a good job on Stare Master, but that's the only episode he's written. Cindy Morrow, writer of Sisterhooves, hasn't really been so hot. Her best work was the Griffon episode, and Winter Wrap-Up, which was mostly musical.
If you look at the upcoming episodes you can already tell that some of them are definitely going to be awesome. In fact all of the next 3 look good based on the descriptions. Cootie Pox, Rainbow Dash, and Rainbow Dash. Win, win, win. I also bet that when the episodes come out you will continue to see the pattern of the writers. It's almost a guarantee that you'll see Meghan McCarthy or M.A. Larson as the writer on the ones we think are 20% cooler than the rest.
I don't really know where to start with ShadowOrc's concerns since:
- I thought the last third of the first season was easily the strongest
- There was no chance in heck they were ever going to do a heavy theme like death in this show - that's straight from Thiessen at Bronycon
- I thought this episode actually dialed back Rarity from Lesson Zero, thank goodness
- No fan catering in this episode (I didn't have a problem with Luna Eclipsed either)
I will say that the sense of the writers discovering the world is mostly gone, and that I'm less insanely invested in the show after the initial period of being blown away that such a show could be amazingly good. But my fandom level has dropped more to where it was at during peak seasons of Simpsons or South Park - it's the one thing I'm eager to watch each week, then I move on after watching each episode a few times. Except FiM has a couple great PMVs per week and the occasional amusing media breakout to keep me checking the fansites daily.
As for jumping the shark... I have to debate the points made about Simpsons. I distinctly remember the episodes that made me check out of caring about the Simpsons, the elf jockey episode and the grifter episode, and the episode that made me stop watching entirely, the Brazil episode. Simpsons today is not terrible, the episodes are certainly watchable and supposedly an improvement on a few seasons ago, but the spark is gone and the Simpsons is now (edit: as the above video demonstrates) a reinforcing part of popular culture rather than a critique. South Park is in the same boat (towelie intervention episode) although the recent two parter about the show getting stale sparked my interest a bit. Maybe "jump the shark" isn't quite an accurate description for this phenomenon if you look at the source and demand absolute awfulness, but the scenario I describe is certainly how it's commonly used for lack of a better term for this sort of thing.
Still, the "one day" joke had me rolling.
I would call the episode "When You Dish Upon A Star" the Shark jumping moment. Hey, look how Homer becomes a completely incapable live-in maid for three celebrity guest stars. Hijinks are sure to ensue.
Very much unlike MLP, which kind of instills why I love it more. The two parters are given extra importance, because the establish the relationships so much better.
If you have read or watched Death Note (I hear the anime is very similar to the manga), there is a point in the middle of the story where things take a drastic change. Characters change and the plot takes a sharp turn at the fork in the road. Many people think that this is where Death Note jumps a shark, but that's not true.
It is true that the second half is not as good as the first half, but the second half isn't awful. It's just that everything is relative. Without some absolute measure, like a ruler, people measure everything relatively. Because that first half of Death Note is so amazingly good, the fact that the second half is just a little above average still makes it look like crap compared to the first half.
The Simpsons has the same problem. Newer Simpsons stuff is just average or slightly above average. It isn't consistently and painfully awful.
Also, chaosof99. You say it jumped when it became little more than a vehicle for celebrity guest appearances? I guess you only like the first two episodes ever. The Simpsons has always been full of celebrity cameos since the very beginning. It's just that more celebrities with bigger names became willing to come on the show as popularity increased.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_guest_stars_on_The_Simpsons
You want to see some real shark jumpage? How about Star Wars Episode 1? Or supposedly the Usagi Drop manga makes a big shark jump after a time skip, I've only watched the anime. You could also bring the infamous island episodes of Nadia into the discussion.
As for the Death Note problem you are again wrong because we are not confusing the two. Of course I don't expect you to get that and I can already tell this is one of those discussions that end in Scott proclaiming that he is absolutely right and everybody else is wrong.
If we're going to be picky about our definition of shark jump, I'd say that Star Wars doesn't qualify, because it came back after a nearly 2 decade break with completely different actors rather than being a single continuous series that was run into the ground. And Usagi Drop, oh man what happens with that isn't shark jumping at all, it's the Death Note problem in the second volume and then the ending, oh God the ending... if you've managed to remain blissfully unspoiled please keep doing so. I'll even concede the point.
Anyway we need a name for the phenomenon because it happens to just about every American serial show - anything that is a hit runs for too long and eventually descends into mediocrity. Death Note problem will never catch on because not enough Americans watch anime. Maybe we could call it the Simpsons problem.
I rest my case.
So far, I like Season 2 more than Season 1. I feel like the writers have a firm grasp of their world now, and they're really starting to go all-out with the characters.
So fuck you, there's no decline yet. Call me when things actually start sucking.
And for the record, "jumping the shark" in its original meaning referred to the moment when a show passes its peak, and then begins a decline into mediocrity from which it never recovers. It's usually impossible to tell that a shark jumping is occurring; it can usually only be detected in retrospect.
So yesterdays episode wasn't my favorite and was closer to the worst episodes, but that didn't coma as a surprise. I didn't expect the episode to be awesome and great, because I don't really like Rarity and the episode had quite a lot of focus on her. Still I appreciate the fact that they made a episode about sibling relations and the animation was still great. I really liked some of Sweetie Belle's mannerisms, when she crawled on the floor while bored she was just too cute.
It never feels that way to me, for some reason. Watching Fonzie jump the shark was for me the last straw after a long slide. It was the point of no return, not the beginning of the end. I wonder if other people felt that differently about the fourth and fifth seasons, or if the meaning had shifted significantly by the time that "jump the shark" web site brought the term into common usage.