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Life After Divorce

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  • OP buy a speedboat
  • Guys, there's always puppy love at first. It's called limerence.
  • Guys, there's always puppy love at first. It's called limerence.
    That's a thing?
  • That's at least one real answer.
    That's an example of the answers that have been given you clout.
    The difference is that in this answer there was confirmation that the person was originally awesome, and there was also a reason for the drastic change.
    So you believe a single anecdote more than the reasoned input of people drawn from examination of this issue in multiple different instances?

    I mean, Scott, there are studies about brain chemistry changes with time, in relationships - in all sorts of situations. And yet it's anecdotal evidence that sways you?
  • That's at least one real answer.
    That's an example of the answers that have been given you clout.
    The difference is that in this answer there was confirmation that the person was originally awesome, and there was also a reason for the drastic change.
    So you believe a single anecdote more than the reasoned input of people drawn from examination of this issue in multiple different instances?

    I mean, Scott, there are studies about brain chemistry changes with time, in relationships - in all sorts of situations. And yet it's anecdotal evidence that sways you?
    I'm not swayed. I'm not arguing or taking a position on an issue here. I just wanted to know what a person is actually thinking. Yeah, I know a change in brain chemistry and such can explain why it happens in some cases. But that's not a mystery. The mystery is what thoughts is a person actually having when they make these decisions.
  • edited February 2012
    I mean, Scott, there are studies about brain chemistry changes with time, in relationships - in all sorts of situations. And yet it's anecdotal evidence that sways you?
    Seriously, I think you somewhat overstate this facet of it. Far be it from me to deny the importance of hormonal chemistry in behavior, but you ascribe to it things that I believe are often highly motivated by situational factors. From what I understand, people are basically the same personality wise for most of their adult life, baring severe injury. Environmental factors and new experiences are probably the biggest reason for changes in the way they act. You do this with genes too, singling their influence out to the exclusion of all other elements. Innate genetic characteristics are a HUGE factor in the way someone turns out, but never underestimate the value of nurture. Same deal.
    In my opinion, yes, people change. Yes, their hormones fluctuate and they have periods when that might affect them. However, I think that in most cases, it is personality clashes that were there since the beginning, but were just brought out by the experiences the couple undergoes.
    Post edited by gomidog on
  • I mean, Scott, there are studies about brain chemistry changes with time, in relationships - in all sorts of situations. And yet it's anecdotal evidence that sways you?
    Seriously, I think you somewhat overstate this facet of it. Far be it from me to deny the importance of hormonal chemistry in behavior, but you ascribe to it things that I believe are often highly motivated by situational factors. From what I understand, people are basically the same personality wise for most of their adult life, baring severe injury. Environmental factors and new experiences are probably the biggest reason for changes in the way they act. You do this with genes too, singling their influence out to the exclusion of all other elements. Innate genetic characteristics are a HUGE factor in the way someone turns out, but never underestimate the value of nurture. Same deal.
    In my opinion, yes, people change. Yes, their hormones fluctuate and they have periods when that might affect them. However, I think that in most cases, it is personality clashes that were there since the beginning, but were just brought out by the experiences the couple undergoes.
    We always hit this point in these discussions, and it's always the same root cause: we're both talking about valid causes at different points in the chain of causality.

    I'm not at all dismissing "environmental factors." I never do. What I'm talking about are the mechanisms triggered by those environmental factors. The list of "situational factors" is absolutely enormous, so when Scott asks a question like, "Why do these people make these shitty decisions," we can spend weeks running through different specific environmental factors.

    Instead, I go down a level and say, "Because your chemistry changes." I'm just glossing over the innumerable environmental factors and going to the mechanism.

    We're both right.

    I don't know about "clashes that were there from the beginning." Perhaps the factors were in place, but I wouldn't call it a clash until both parties are knowingly in conflict. So, if your partner secretly hates your friends but says, "Have fun at the party," and you believe them and go to the party, it's not what I call a personality clash yet. The clash hasn't actually happened. It's trouble brewing.

  • So, if your partner secretly hates your friends but says, "Have fun at the party," and you believe them and go to the party, it's not what I call a personality clash yet. The clash hasn't actually happened. It's trouble brewing.
    Whenever I cook for people, I make more than requested, because a good percentage of people are bewilderingly shy of saying they want food. Sometimes I am tempted to take them at their word and hold them to it, because it happens repeatedly, despite warning. That's just for FOOD. (not to say food isn't awesome)

    The societal-hormonal system rewards:
    (this has pretty much been said)
    - Seeking positive attention
    via appearance, offspring, cultural milestones / status symbols (dating, marriage, childrens, "responsibility"/"maturity", possessions),
    - Validation by positive attention
    due to low self-esteem/confidence, atrophied/lack of existing support structure, cultural norms
    - Maintaining relationships
    concepts like "relationships take work", fairy-tale/rom-com "they'll change", external & internalized judgement (picking wrong partner / not working hard enough / religion), fear of loneliness, denial, poor relationship models (parents, friends, tv drama), seeking sympathetic attention, childrens, finances, don't know who is "right", feeling responsible for another person's happiness

    Everyone is a buggy closed-source black box. Marriage/divorce is a strange concept. Instead of "tying the knot", it should be called "tangling everything".
  • if your partner secretly hates your friends but says, "Have fun at the party," and you believe them and go to the party, it's not what I call a personality clash yet. The clash hasn't actually happened. It's trouble brewing.

    If you choose a partner who not only hates your friends, but actively tries to hide this fact from you, and is furthermore successful in lying to your face about it, that relationship was toxic before it even began. The conflict itself hasn't happened yet, but that's far, far more than simple "trouble brewing."

    1. What kind of shared interests could you possibly, truly have if the new friend/relationship actually hates all of your existing, real friends? You're friends with them for a reason, right? Already, you have to choose regularly (probably forever) between the friends you have fun with and the friend you have sex with. A partner who can't get along with your real friends is worse than no partner unless you're willing to give up your friends. A partner who can't get along with your friends can't get along with a fundamental part of you. Compartmentalizing relationship from other aspects of your life is a disastrous path.

    2. The other partner is hiding a likely relationship dealbreaker from you: are you really comfortable being this intimate with someone who is hiding material information from you? Further, if he/she is hiding that he/she hates your friends, can you really ever expect this opinion to reasonably change?

    3. If you honestly can't tell you're being lied to, directly and about material matters, you're already fucked, but I should point it out again.


    Dating someone who does the stereotypical "hates your friends, hides this from you" thing (it's stupidly common) is one of the biggest warning signs you can possibly get about a toxic relationship in the making.
  • edited February 2012
    Yah I don't think anyone's particularly advocating doing dumb shit for a relationship,,,
    I am, but my dumb shit works for me.

    @Rym

    1. Did you just say "Bro's before hoe's?"

    2. I call them landmines. Get out as soon as you find one cuz they have more.

    3. This happens when you place someone on a pedestal. You should never think that someone is "too good" for you, or trick yourself into thinking they're better then they are.

    Post edited by Wyatt on
  • Getting back to one of my questions: is it possible to have some sort of red LED thingee over your eye so that you can wear sunglasses over it and have it glow through the sunglasses like teh Terminator?

    I could swear I've seen something like this before, but I don't remember where.

    Anyway, I want one.
  • Getting back to one of my questions: is it possible to have some sort of red LED thingee over your eye so that you can wear sunglasses over it and have it glow through the sunglasses like teh Terminator?

    I could swear I've seen something like this before, but I don't remember where.

    Anyway, I want one.
    Buy some sunglasses and just tape one of these behind it. You probably won't be able to see, though.

    http://www.instructables.com/id/LED-Throwies/
  • @Rym: I don't think we're disagreeing on much. Seems like you're elaborating on my points.

    When I say "trouble brewing," I'm using a pretty all-encompassing definition of "trouble." Some things are toxic, some things are just going to result in a small conflict. It's all "trouble."

    I completely agree about 1 and 2.

    Point number 3 is where I think you and I might diverge in our approach to relationships, and that's what I want to drill down. It seems to me that you're saying the concept of "trust" should be a non-issue: either someone is telling the truth, or you know when they're lying.

    I doubt you have the all-encompassing power to always tell when someone is lying to you or omitting something. You're probably really good at catching it - I am too. All you really have to do is pay attention, and you can gather evidence pointing you to the likely state of someone's mood.

    Here's the problem: if you find yourself questioning the veracity of your partner's statements with frequency, the relationship is in a lot of trouble.

    The odd check-in probably isn't an issue; most people will inadvertently say something without quite thinking it all the way through, or draw a conclusion without having all the information, or otherwise say something that is lacking in truth somewhere.

    When it's a pattern of behavior, and you're consistently having to probe statements for truth, then the trust element in the relationship is gone.

    Basically, there are two ways that a lie can work. Either the other person outright fools you, or you choose to believe their statement. Choosing to believe a statement in the face of evidence that says they're lying is stupid.

    However, if your partner makes a statement that could contain an element of untruth (and all statements really can) but you're not quite sure, and you have the choice to probe for information or believe them, you need to elect to believe them.

    So here's a question. Your partner is going out for the night. You're in separate rooms when the conversation happens. You ask "Where are you going?" They say, "Oh, out to [x] bar with [y] friends!" Do you believe that statement or not? Or how do you use your super lie-detecting powers to determine the truth of that statement?
  • So here's a question. Your partner is going out for the night. You're in separate rooms when the conversation happens. You ask "Where are you going?" They say, "Oh, out to [x] bar with [y] friends!" Do you believe that statement or not? Or how do you use your super lie-detecting powers to determine the truth of that statement?
    I'm going to Wegman's.
  • So here's a question. Your partner is going out for the night. You're in separate rooms when the conversation happens. You ask "Where are you going?" They say, "Oh, out to [x] bar with [y] friends!" Do you believe that statement or not? Or how do you use your super lie-detecting powers to determine the truth of that statement?
    I'm going to Wegman's.
    Dude must love produce or something.

  • Or is she and her pony friends just planning a surprise party for you...
  • edited February 2012
    Or is she and her pony friends just planning a surprise party for you...
    See, there's still brony inside you. Just watch the newer episodes. It'll be reignited.
    Getting back to one of my questions: is it possible to have some sort of red LED thingee over your eye so that you can wear sunglasses over it and have it glow through the sunglasses like teh Terminator?

    I could swear I've seen something like this before, but I don't remember where.

    Anyway, I want one.
    http://spectrum.ieee.org/biomedical/bionics/augmented-reality-in-a-contact-lens/0

    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
  • Joe, watch My Little Pony. Bitches love ponies.
  • Expect to pay more in taxes after your divorce as well. I got back about $1,000 last year (would have been more but 'someone' cashed in a ton of investments during that year and left me with the tax burden) and this year I am looking at owing about $4,000

    I always heard about the "marriage penalty" on taxes but I never experienced it.
  • edited February 2012
    Okay, I wanted to avoid talking about this, but it looks like it must be discussed, particularly in light of comments along the lines of "I can't understand failed marriages and how the people couldn't see it coming a mile away like I could, utilizing my superhuman prescience."

    My ex was pretty geeky when we first met. She could qoute from Monty Python with the best of them. She was reeasonably familiar with science fiction, science, and comics, or as familiar as anyone can expect a woman to be. She was very geeky about music and horses. We got along fine for many years.

    A few years ago, she developed Crohn's Disease. Crohn's symptoms made her very cranky. Then, last summer, she started getting hot flashes. Her doctors told her she was starting menopause.

    I have discussed this whole thing with many friends. They all say (her family members even agree) that she has started exhibiting some completely different personality traits. She even admits herself that menopause and what she calls a "midlife crisis" has caused her to be totally confused about a lot of things.

    If anyone asked me for a reason that we split, I'd have to say that I honestly don't know. She reported some vague feelings of discontent, but couldn't be rational about it. She'd say things like she didn't like washing clothes, and I would start washing clothes instead so she wouldn't need to, and also remind her that i usually washed my own in the first place, but things like this just made her more discontented.

    That's the thing - she could never give me a rational reason for the changes in her behavior, besides the pain from Crohn's, the hormonal changes, and the midlife crisis.

    TO ANY WOMEN - PLEASE, PLEASE SPARE ME ANY POSTS ABOUT HOW MENOPAUSE IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYONE AND BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. WHAT I'VE JUST SAID IS NOT MEANT TO BE AN INDICTMENT OF ALL WOMANKIND. IT'S JUST WHAT HAPPENED WITH THIS ONE PARTICULAR WOMAN.

    Now, back to the people who can predict the future: I'm sorry if you think it's a character flaw, but I could not predict when we met that she would develop Crohn's and develop much crankiness from the pain and multiple doctor's visits, and food aversions, and hospital stays, and all the shit that goes along with Crohn's. I also could not predict tht menopause would so profoundly affect her to e point where some of her family members would even tell me that I have done nothing wrong, but that she's totally changed many parts of her personality due to hormone changes, and I could not predict that her "mid-life crisis" would be so hard on her. I might ask those who are so smug in their belief of their own infallibility what traits might have clued me in to the liklihood of these problems. Should I have avoided her because she's a woman, and therefore subject to possible weirdness at menopause? Maybe I should have avoided her because she was a human being and therefore subject to possibly developing Crohn's or having a mid-life crisis?

    Do you guys understand how jerky shit like that makes you sound? It's really sad, because you're really not the complete assholes you sometimes sound like, but - you can always tell when someone's lying? Really? If you really have this superpower, you should be making a lot more money than you are now by consulting with the government at congressional hearings, the Pentagon at contractor meetings, the court system at every stage of every legal case, the list goes on and on.

    Jesus.

    Oh yeah - Steve, she took over finances in my case too. At first I didn't care, because it's hard to kep up with all that. Then, after menopause, she said it was too much pressure. I offered to do it all, or at least help, but she said she couldn't trust me to do it right, so she just went on being cranky, upset, and resentful about it.

    I still think that, without menopause, we'd still be together now.
    Post edited by HungryJoe on
  • One other thing - a few weeks ago, I saw this guy at the library with the coolest looking goggle ingees ever. They were obviously perscription, and they had these little telescope things over both eyes. Much larger than a loupe. This guy was actually using them to read. He wasn't trying to look cool.

    Does anyone know where I can get some? I very much want some.

    Thanks Scott and Pete for your suggestions for the Terminator thing.
  • HungryJoe, are you talking about this?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loupe
  • Jesus.
    I think that sums it up pretty well. For what it's worth, I kind of figured something unique happened in your circumstance, and didn't think you were simply ignoring your own intelligence in the matter. All in all it sounds like you were hit with an unavoidable series of events that led up to your current situation. This is what I would call a "sucky situation".

    To answer your other questions, I am unsure as to how you can get fangs created. You could possibly ask the tattoed gentleman (or gentlewoman) who works at Spencer's Gifts or Hot Topic.

  • See now this is upsetting. Do I have to worry about one of my friends suddenly getting a disease or a chemical change and suddenly turn into a different person? That's basically the same as them dying and being replaced with someone else.

    Even worse, do I have to worry about ME suddenly becoming a different person?

    Also, does this "person changes because of biology/disease/crisis/baby/etc." account for what percentage of divorces? Is there even data on that, reasons for divorce by percentage? I would like to think that it takes something like that kind of unexpected change for smart people to have problems worthy of causing such drama, but is that really the case? What are the not so smart people thinking? What are the people with amicable divorces thinking? What are the people who have like a zillion ex-wives/husbands thinking?
  • HungryJoe, are you talking about this?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loupe
    No. They were much bigger than tht and were on eyeglass frames so ey covered both eyes like goggles.
    Jesus.
    I think that sums it up pretty well. For what it's worth, I kind of figured something unique happened in your circumstance, and didn't think you were simply ignoring your own intelligence in the matter. All in all it sounds like you were hit with an unavoidable series of events that led up to your current situation. This is what I would call a "sucky situation".
    Yes. No matter how smart you think you are, there are some things, especially medical problems, THAT JUST CANNOT BE PREDICTED.
  • See now this is upsetting. Do I have to worry about one of my friends suddenly getting a disease or a chemical change and suddenly turn into a different person? That's basically the same as them dying and being replaced with someone else.

    Even worse, do I have to worry about ME suddenly becoming a different person?

    Also, does this "person changes because of biology/disease/crisis/baby/etc." account for what percentage of divorces? Is there even data on that, reasons for divorce by percentage? I would like to think that it takes something like that kind of unexpected change for smart people to have problems worthy of causing such drama, but is that really the case? What are the not so smart people thinking? What are the people with amicable divorces thinking? What are the people who have like a zillion ex-wives/husbands thinking?
    I'm not sure you can really generalize the reasons for divorce like that. It sounds like there are specifics at play in every thing.

    And yes, medical conditions causing psychological problems are something I would worry about. I'm concerned that my fiance will change eventually, I can't predict the future that well. I'm pretty confident we'll be able to make things work, but it's possible we won't and it will be messy. It's a risk I knew when getting into it, though.
  • See now this is upsetting. Do I have to worry about one of my friends suddenly getting a disease or a chemical change and suddenly turn into a different person? That's basically the same as them dying and being replaced with someone else.
    I've actually read a couple of books lately about menopause. It doesn't affect everyone the same way, but doctors recognize that it can actually totally change what a person finds to be important in life, especially insofar as how much tolerance they have in their relationships with other people.

    Long story short, and as a completely politically incorrect translation, it does fuck people up.
  • See now this is upsetting. Do I have to worry about one of my friends suddenly getting a disease or a chemical change and suddenly turn into a different person? That's basically the same as them dying and being replaced with someone else.
    I've actually read a couple of books lately about menopause. It doesn't affect everyone the same way, but doctors recognize that it can actually totally change what a person finds to be important in life, especially insofar as how much tolerance they have in their relationships with other people.

    Long story short, and as a completely politically incorrect translation, it does fuck people up.
    So for the important question that is on everyone's mind:

    Did you get the PS3?
  • HungryJoe, I'm pretty sure Scott is the only one here saying you (and everyone else on this planet) should have been superhuman and seen this coming. :-P

    It seems like you are very happy and relieved now, which is great! My best friend's parents recently got divorced, and at first I was like "Noooo..." But then I saw it was actually a very good thing, because her mom was so happy. Even my friend is happy that now her parents are apart and can do their own thing without hating each other anymore. In their situation, her husband started out fine but then changed later on. You know, one of those things Scott would have seen coming. She gave me the best advice ever though, and that is to never marry someone unless you've lived with them awhile.

    That sucks about your wife having Crohn's though. I can see how it would drastically change someone's general attitude/personality/outlook on life. I have something mildly similar to Crohn's, and man it sucks sometimes. I've had it forever now and have learned how to deal with it. You never know about these things, people just get sick. We can't all be paranoid though that our partners may get sick and change though, you just have to take that risk if you love them enough. Not to mention there's always the risk that they could die at any time for any reason, which to me seems like it would be a lot worse to have to go through than divorce.
  • edited February 2012
    See now this is upsetting. Do I have to worry about one of my friends suddenly getting a disease or a chemical change and suddenly turn into a different person? That's basically the same as them dying and being replaced with someone else.

    Even worse, do I have to worry about ME suddenly becoming a different person?

    Also, does this "person changes because of biology/disease/crisis/baby/etc." account for what percentage of divorces? Is there even data on that, reasons for divorce by percentage? I would like to think that it takes something like that kind of unexpected change for smart people to have problems worthy of causing such drama, but is that really the case? What are the not so smart people thinking? What are the people with amicable divorces thinking? What are the people who have like a zillion ex-wives/husbands thinking?
    Do you have to worry. No, you don't have to do anything. But it's a possibility, like the other myriad possibilities out there.

    As for your second question: OK, tomorrow, you're a different person. What happens? I mean, is changing really such a bad thing?

    I mean, if you changed from, say, Scott Rubin to Scott Rubin with Prostate Cancer, or Scott Rubin and The Voices in His Head, that'd be bad.

    But if you woke up tomorrow and decided you were gay, or that you really didn't like the original Legend of Zelda, or that Pinkie Pie was superior to Rainbow Dash, would it really be that terrible?

    Personally, I like to think that we're always changing. An observant person who is truly engaging with the world should be moved by experiences, and should be dynamically adapting to them. So, really, your personality should change over time, but at a reasonable pace. Waking up tomorrow as someone else is a sufficiently dramatic change that it could indicate a problem.

    As for the reasons for divorces, well - it's complicated.

    EDIT: Also, men can experience menopause-like symptoms as well. Testosterone production declines with age, though it's more gradual than the estrogen drop in women. Most of the reason that we can identify menopause (and that it stands out so much) is that it involves a relatively rapid decline in hormone levels. We're still talking years, but like 5 years as opposed to 30.

    Post edited by TheWhaleShark on
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